I am still here
Alhamdu lillah, I'm still around. Thanks to all the people who wrote to me and commented here to check whether I was safe after this morning's bombings in London. I actually had a rather interesting day, and I guess as a blogger I should tell the world what I saw and heard of today's events.
I live in New Malden, and my work today was out of an industrial estate in Mitcham, which is a bus and a tram ride away. I had to pick up a Ryder truck from Croydon, drive it to Manston airport, which is right out at the far end of Kent near to the port town of Ramsgate, pick up a truckload of baggage belonging to a party of American tourists who'd taken a charter flight from an undisclosed place in the USA (by the tags on their bags, it seems they came from Nebraska!), and drive it to the Hilton Hotel in Park Lane, London.
I headed out of Croydon and picked up the M25 ring road at junction 6, and stopped off about five miles east at Clacket Lane service station. I used the toilet, bought one bar of chocolate marzipan (their coffee is way too expensive, and I'd already had my fill of coffee at the AMT bar at Wimbledon station), and went back to the truck. This was about 9:25am, and Jon Gaunt's phone-in show was on. They were talking about some strange occurrences, like bangs on the underground which people thought were caused by light fittings falling onto the tracks in front of trains and that sort of thing. They said the tubes were closed down and there was obviously a lot of disruption.
When I got to Maidstone around 9:45am, the BBC London station's signal was fading, so I tuned it to Radio 4. At 10am, it was still "power surges", and Woman's Hour and the 10:45 drama (The Reef by Edith Wharton) passed off as normal. Then at 11, they put on an extended news bulletin and then said they were suspending normal programmes, and joining the BBC's rolling news channel, Radio 5 Live. (Interestingly, we were also joined with the BBC Asian Network.)
It was at this point that we got the news that the incidents in London were explosions and that not only tube trains but also a bus had been hit. I told one of the other drivers who said it wasn't a surprise that London had been bombed - if Paris had got the Olympics, he said, that city would have been hit instead. We were hearing that there were injuries and possible fatalities. At that time, our main concern was how we would get through the chaos the bombings were said to be causing. We had to go from one side to the other. Given that our guests were Americans, I mentioned to the other lads that perhaps the Americans might be told that we'd just had a big terrorist attack, so that they could decide whether they wanted to continue their trip (which I later discovered was by courtesy of the State Farm Insurance Companies Group and was a reward for selling insurance!) or go home.
For a while, it looked that I might be going home, as the luggage did not like it would fill three, let alone four, trucks. In the end, I did get some, so it looked like I was in it for the long haul. I made frantic phonecalls to the boss, to my agency, and my family; my Dad works at Vauxhall, and he told me that the traffic was flowing OK round there. I stopped three times on the way to make calls, and answer one from my Mum. She did not know until I told her that the incidents were terrorism and not accidents. I also called the hotel and asked them about the traffic situation and whether there had been any change of plan. There hadn't been, and it seemed the traffic was OK, despite Edgware Road (which starts at the far end of Park Lane) having been closed due to the bomb attack at the station. But before every jump-off point on the road to London, there were light-matrix signs saying "Avoid London, Area Closed". Just before the M25 the signs added "Turn on radio".
I turned BBC London back on just before I crossed over the M25 at Dartford. They were running a "rolling news" feature, and their normal afternoon presenter (Robert Elms) had been replaced with the evening phone-in team of Eddie Nestor and Kath Melandri. Nestor and Melandri made it perfectly clear that nothing would be announced on their show other than what had happened - there would be no speculation. There was a great emphasis on keeping things calm and so there wasn't much on who was behind the attacks, because it wasn't known.
The Ramsgate road is a non-stopping highway all the way from east Kent to the Kidbrooke traffic lights. About a quarter of a mile north of there, if you're going into London, you turn off the dual carriageway onto the Shooters Hill Road. I carried on across Blackheath, down the hill into Deptford, through New Cross and into Peckham, where I hit the usual slow traffic. I kept wondering when I would meet the inevitable gridlock. On through Camberwell, past the Oval, round the big junction at Vauxhall, up the Vauxhall Bridge Road ... I could see heavy traffic everywhere, but the way I was going was mostly blissfully clear.
At Victoria, less than a mile from my destination, I met my first police cordon. Traffic was being diverted back along Wilton Road, parallel to Vauxhall Bridge Road. I asked a policeman how I might get to Park Lane, and he suggested going back to Vauxhall Bridge Road, which of course would lead me straight to the point where I was talking to him! I headed for the Belgrave Road, an old double for the VBR, which also led into a police cordon. I ended up driving round in circles in Pimlico, a part of London I'm not too familiar with. In the end, I found myself on Lupus Street which leads to Grosvenor Road. Grosvenor Road runs along the north side of the Thames, and there is a set of traffic lights at which, if you turn right, you will drive up to Sloane Square and then Knightsbridge. But ... you can't turn right. So I had to drive across the river, down to the roundabout (where the Shell/Sainsbury's garage is) and back across the river.
I got to the hotel (after driving round one of London's maze-like one-way systems) to find the other guys already there, and indeed already off-loaded. In the end, they departed for Mitcham before I could even start off-loading, so when I finally got started, I had to bring the luggage from front of truck to back on my own, while the helpers picked them up at the back, an arrangement which didn't impress me much. If there was any of this so-called "bulldog spirit" in the air this afternoon, it was not in evidence in Park Lane.
I finally hit the road about 4 (I was so annoyed and tired that I thought it was 5pm, which increased my annoyance of course!) and headed for Chelsea Bridge. They were telling people on the news to go home if they could, without stampeding or everyone flooding out at once. So we got an extended rush hour - perhaps because a lot of delay in getting kids out of school. Chelsea Bridge Road and Queenstown Road were slow. So was Clapham Common South Side, as it always is, due to roadworks just south of the busy junction with the South Circular SO THEY CAN BUILD A TESCO STORE!!!!! And Tooting was jammed up as it so often is. By this time I was really desperate to get back home, as I hadn't had much sleep last night.
So far (remember, the morning papers haven't hit the streets yet), I've been impressed with the radio coverage, although I've only listened to Radio 4 and London Live. I have to say, I find some of the LBC presenters usually pretty calm and reasonable; Jon Gaunt has used "hand-wringing" as some sort of insult, while I've heard one of LBC's guys say openly that he couldn't find any easy solution for some issue or other, but Nick Ferrari's reputation is something else entirely, not that I listen to him. I'm at a loss to what this "bulldog spirit" they were talking about means. A "bulldog" is otherwise known as a bull terrier, a dog bred for fighting which used to be known for mauling infant children and for its appeal to morons and drug dealers; the breed has been strictly controlled since a few nasty incidents in the early 1990s.
I wasn't so impressed with the absence of coverage on any other issue - such as, for example, an arrest related to the murder of 13-year-old Amanda "Milly" Dowler in 2002; I read the news on the Evening Standard's headline boards, and really wanted to hear the news, but the bombings edged literally everything else out.
Tory Bliar's mid-day speech was as unimpressive as I thought it would be; Ken Livingstone's, which I believe was delivered in Singapore where he had gone to bid for the Olympics, increased my confidence in him - it was based on appeal to "Londoner" solidarity rather than patriotism. He also pointed out that the bombs were aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners of every race, caste, age and religion. Bliar, on the other hand, was talking about "our way of life" in a way reminiscent of Bush or Ronald Dumbsfeld, which gave the impression that it would be used as an excuse for ever more intrusive "security" measures. Yeah, he pointed out that most Muslims were decent people. But nobody pointed out that two Muslim areas were hit. Until 10:17pm, when I heard Trevor Phillips making the first such reference; as I write, at 10:18, they are interviewing one Ayman Slama in his Egyptian restaurant.
Who did this is, at present, not clear; an unknown al-Qa'ida type outfit is said to have posted a "claim of responsibility" on a forum, on which anyone can post anonymously. Sa'ad al-Faqih was interviewed and he said that the Arabic on the claim was dodgy and that the Qur'an was wrongly quoted, which led him to suspect that it wasn't the "real" al-Qai'da, although it could perhaps be a home-grown Qa'ida-influenced group. (Does anyone see similarities with the "9/11 suicide notes" that everyone's forgotten about?) I have no idea why al-Qa'ida would deliberately attack two Muslim areas. There is suspicion that at least one device was set off inadvertently.
One observes that this doesn't look like a catastrophic attack, unless you're one of the people killed or seriously injured or bereaved. There have been four trains hit and one bus. What have we been threatened with over the years since 9/11 - "dirty bombs", smallpox, anthrax ... I heard that back in 1995, there was a programme shown on TV which said that a nuclear terrorist attack was in some way overdue. But what we have seen is basically four IRA-style bombings. By the exorbitant standards of al-Qa'ida (huge truck bombs, attacks on ships, planes into skyscrapers), this looks rather like a barrel-scraping of the order of the infamous bomb hoax at the 1997 Grand National (a big horse race). Sinn Fein, the IRA's political wing, signed a power-sharing deal the following year; if this was al-Qa'ida, it probably means they are close to exhausted.
But really, I don't expect anyone to ask me to condemn this bombing. These people will not find many friends among the Muslims in London, because today they made four attempts to kill us. Most Muslims know that our deen does not give us the right to kill indiscriminately; the reasons such attacks are un-Islamic are so numerous and so obvious that any attempt to spell them out would seem inadequate. We know that there are Muslims in London who despise other Muslims, who do not care if they bring well-meaning fellow believers campaigning against state terrorism into disrepute. I'm not saying they are the same people - I'm pretty sure that they are so full of wind and stupid slogans that they would not have the brains to make a bomb. But they are our enemy as well, and the reason we can't offer much help in dealing with them is mostly that, well, they don't tell us before they bomb us.
Comments
Glad to hear you are ok sidi Yusuf. Please keep us updated with a bird's eye view of what's happening in London. Take care.
Posted by: ahmed weir | July 8, 2005 1:07 AM
Good to hear you're ok Yusuf.
Posted by: DrM | July 8, 2005 2:07 AM
Salaam 'Alaikum
I was wondering if you were there today. Subhan'Allah.
Posted by: UmmZaid | July 8, 2005 5:07 AM
I have no idea why al-QaâÂÂida would deliberately attack two Muslim areas.
The don't think they're real Muslims, Yusuf. They think they're apostates, living comfortable integrated lives in the west.
That's they're point.
That's why they're our enemy
Posted by: David T | July 8, 2005 6:07 AM
As-Salaamu 'alaikum,
Ahmed, I'm way out on the edge of town and my wings have been clipped by my Mum who does not want me going into the centre of town today.
Posted by: Yusuf Smith | July 8, 2005 9:07 AM
More manure from BNP reject troll "cat." Ofcourse any Muslims killed would be a "coincidence." Apparently the continent which gave us crusades, fascism and nazism hasnt learnt a thing from its own murderous history.
Posted by: DrM | July 8, 2005 10:07 AM
Asslamu Alakum, alhamdu li allah for your safety.
Posted by: bibi | July 8, 2005 10:07 AM
The fact that they bombed Muslim areas may be purely coincidental. Edgware Rd is, after all, a pretty busy place. These bastards wanted to kill Westerners/Londoners, of whatever religion.
We know that there are Muslims in London who despise other Muslims, who do not care if they bring well-meaning fellow believers campaigning against state terrorism into disrepute.
The 'bringing into disrepute' is the least of it.
The terrorists obviously think they are acting Islamically. Why would you be right and they wrong?
Posted by: Cat | July 8, 2005 10:07 AM
The crusades were an attempt to reclaim Christian lands that had been taken over by Muslims in Islam's violent expansion. The crusades were violent and many atrocities were committed. But get over them - they were yonks ago and you won.
Apparently the continent which gave us crusades, fascism and nazism hasnt learnt a thing from its own murderous history.
And what has the Islamic world given us lately, in the way of inventions, art, entertainment, literature? Just asking.
Posted by: Cat | July 8, 2005 10:07 AM
Cat, Islamic world has not given any inventions, art, entertainment, literature lately. Perhaps, this is because the muslims are in a bad spiritual state and have fallen short of their own Islamic principles. However, even if muslim world were in good shape, Islam is not designed to give any inventions, art, entertainment, literature in the conventional sense. The Islamic mentality brings about these things only in the functional sense, i.e. to the degree to which it is useful for the human soul and against the backdrop of Eternality. By Eternality here, I mean something quite broad, rich and comprehensive by every single human traditional cultural interpretation. Frankly speaking, the invention, art, entertainment, literature that has been churned out and greedily consumed by muslims and non-muslims alike over this last century or so hasn't really contributed anything to humanity. Show me what contribution it has brought for the human purpose? Besides few dispensable conveniences,.. Nothing. Perhaps except heedlessless, stupidity, confusion, destruction, exploitation, narcism, egotism, selfishness, nationalism, racism, injustices, wars, anger, environmental woes to say just a few. Don't get me wrong any alternative forms of "invention, art, entertainment, literature, arts" may also carry this potential to be anti-human or "anti-biotic". But each forms must be judged by its foundational principles/basis. What exactly is it setting out to do? What is it getting at, what is it trying to achieve? I don't see any answer to these questions in todays "invention, art, entertainment, literature". I don't even see todays "invention, art, entertainment, literature" providing a context for it own discourse. I hear George Bush speak on behalf of the American people or "invention, art, entertainment, literature", and I feel embarrased, honestly. I feel shy when I hear them speak. Cos I know we share this humanity, and to see them make a travesty of it, gives you a shiver. And Tony Blair is beginning to degenerate in that direction as well.
So, what I am saying is: It is not about how many toy guys, or cars, or aeroplanes, or fantasy fiction, etc that you can put out (within a short space of time). It is not an "invention, art, entertainment, literature" competition game. It is about what endures, what fosters good socio-political relationship in the world and leads to human "Happiness".
As the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Verily, actions are by Intentions, and verily every man will get what he intends......Whoever intends God, gets God, and whoever intends a journey for a woman of for wordly things, he get's what he intends"
There is hardly any harm in that
Posted by: anonymous | July 8, 2005 12:07 PM
An honest and civil reply from Anonymous. What a drab, dreary life Islam gives, then. And without invention, a poor, disease-ridden one.
When it comes to inventions then, for example the internet, medicine, telephones, cars etc, the Muslim world is content to sponge off the West rather than inventing anything themselves.
A sorry state of affairs indeed.
Posted by: Cat | July 8, 2005 12:07 PM
Back to your point. ThereâÂÂs nothing wrong in sponging of the âÂÂwestâÂÂsâ internet, medicine, telephone, etc. What makes you think it is wrong for cultures to mix and benefit from one another?
As-Salaamu 'alaikum,
And who is "sponging" anyway? Muslims pay for the technology they benefit from, it's not as if they steal it.
Posted by: Yusuf Smith | July 8, 2005 1:07 PM
Cat, As I mentioned to you, It is not about how many toy guns, or cars, or aeroplanes, or fantasy fiction, etc that you can put out (within a short space of time). It is not an âÂÂinvention, art, entertainment, literatureâ competition game. It is about what endures, what fosters good socio-political relationship in the world and leads to human âÂÂHappinessâÂÂ.
I have to say tho, you are not informed on how Muslim thinkers contributed to âÂÂinvention, art, entertainment, literatureâ in history. And infact provided the foundation for today's modern science and technology. But I am not one to degenerate to this level of Muslim v.s non-Muslim discussions. I am sure there other people who are already avid to attend to you on that front. Like the people who blew up the trains yesterday (if they were muslims).
My interest is in pointing out that every human being potentially has something to contribute to the world. And conversely, each one also has that potential to create a Rot in the human condition. And I am saying what I have seen over the last century or so (I am not that old by the way!) is generally a continuum of rot, but can improve and infact is improving thanks to voices of reason from leftists, civil right activitist, sociologists, and all sorts of intelligent people. The Islamic opinion is one view from amongst these views. Another one close to home is the "concept" of hereditary peers in the House of Lords: so that the children of those well-trained minds who have inherited similar values from their parents can check our tendency to go stupid, modern and purposeless, without removing our right to do so. But Mr. Blair being the presidential style prime minister thinks it is undemocratic. Democracy even if it means nothing. There's an irrational obsession there. People don't know or think about what they are doing. No context, no basis.
Back to your point. There's nothing wrong in sponging of the "west's" internet, medicine, telephone, etc. What makes you think it is wrong for cultures to mix and benefit from one another? And infact, help one another. So, for instance a farmer from one country can tell another farmer about the benefits of growing his food organically, eating healthy, etc. Reciprocally, a farmer from the west can help a farmer in another country how to apply tractor do a rather difficult job.
Is there something in the "invention, art, entertainment, literatureâ that suggests to you that it is wrong to "sponge off the west rather than inventing anything themselves". And does it suggest to you that it is okay to exploit other people as well. Perhaps there is. So, we need to get rid of that thing and let true humanity flourish regardless or race, culture, religion, and what not.
Posted by: anonymous | July 8, 2005 1:07 PM
IâÂÂve never understood the apparently requirement for anyone of the Muslim faith to apologise for these peoples actions. They are as far away from any faith as David Koresh was from Christianity.
Posted by: Paul | July 8, 2005 1:07 PM
Paul, No way. There is no apology for any act of terrorism is Islam. Violence against civilian people (intentionally or unintentionally) is a capital sin in Islam. Even violence against animal is a criminal sin which can land you in Hell. It is more surprising to me to see people believing that Islam actually encourages this kind of behaviour. The problem is a socio-political one and has nothing to do with Islam.
Posted by: anonymous | July 8, 2005 2:07 PM
And I still don't believe Al-qaeeda or even less confused muslim gangs did this. I am waiting to be convinced. I am waiting for the evidence. And this time around, we hope the public will be allowed to see the evidence. Not like the 9/11, where Bush's government said 'We have the evidence, but we are not going to show it'. Then keep it to yourself and count your losses!
Posted by: anonymous | July 8, 2005 2:07 PM
And who is âÂÂspongingâ anyway? Muslims pay for the technology they benefit from, itâÂÂs not as if they steal it.
Some of it is paid for with unearned oil money.
Besides, is it not fair to say that the Muslim world suffers from lack of inventiveness? You seem like an intelligent man, Yusuf. Can you honestly claim that the Muslim world is not lacking in this department, and that a little bit of judicious self-criticism would not come amiss?
Posted by: Cat | July 8, 2005 3:07 PM
Cat, You seem stuck on this inventiveness issue. So, if we should agree that "Muslim world suffers from lack of inventiveness"... what does that do for you? or for anyone for that matter. Does that make you feel superior and makes others less superior to you. To the point of exploiting them and selling them your weapons of mass destruction so that they become more inventive?
See, this is your problem and the problem of many other people. You judge other people because of what they possess, know or have invented in terms of science and technology, their knowledge of bits and bytes, etc. For God sake, what has this got to do with anything. There is something inherently wrong in the thinking of people like you, and you should strive might and main to correct it.
Let suggest a criterion to you for judging people: It is enough as a good deed that a man does not harm other people.
Hope that helps. Sincerely.
Posted by: anonymous | July 8, 2005 3:07 PM
It is enough as a good deed that a man does not harm other people.
That's all very well, Mr No-Name, but if we'd stuck to that, we'd still be living in caves. We'd live to 30 if we were lucky and then get killed off by some wild animal or die of the pox.
And you certainly wouldn't be able to post that message here - you'd be scratching it on the wall of some cave somewhere as you lay dying of the pox, just two seconds before getting eaten by a wild animal:-)
Posted by: Cat | July 8, 2005 4:07 PM
Brother Yusuf, Alhamdulilah you are safe. Thanks for the report.
anonymous, Do you have a blog? I like the way you think.
Saba
Posted by: Saba | July 8, 2005 4:07 PM
And is there something wrong with that?
Posted by: anonymous | July 8, 2005 4:07 PM
Remember how Muslims were initially blamed for the Oklahoma City bombing, which eventually turned out to be the work of neonazis? Is there any possibility that this is a 'false flag' operation by a previously-unknown neonazi terrorist organization?
Posted by: George Carty | July 8, 2005 4:07 PM
:-). hey!. That's funny, I must say. Get yourself a job making people laugh.
It will be better for you looking for what james bond invention they have under their watch.
Posted by: anonymous | July 8, 2005 4:07 PM
Yusuf/Cat: (Obviously a Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam fan)?
I am a first-time visitor to your blog. Thanks for your entry from May 17 2004 about "Panaroma scaremongering". I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned this in the wake of yesterday's attacks in London. Too bad you were dead wrong.
I'm wondering if this programme actually inspired the perpetrators? Normally, I would be the last person to suggest that media has any significant, originating influence on current events. As a media person and former journalist, my bias is to say, we report the facts, but in this case, I have to consider whether "the facts" as disclosed in the Panaroma programme might've proved very useful to the terrorists.
In retrospect, that might explain why the Home Office was reluctant to take part in the programme, don't you think?
I've raised this question (with a link to your blog) over at: www.kazablog.com .
Peace, safety and God's grace be with you and to all peace-loving, Koran-adhering Muslims in London...
Posted by: activist kaza | July 8, 2005 5:07 PM
George, We need to wait for the outcome of the police investigation. Whoever has done this, it is a bad thing to do. And they have no excuse, nor can they use Iraq as a reason. Because, the invaders of Iraq are not our teachers (as Omar Mukhtar once said).
Oh sister Saba, these aren't thoughts belonging to me or anyone. This is what we learn from Islam, and the traditional interpretation of Qur'an and Sunnah.
Posted by: anonymous | July 8, 2005 5:07 PM
Salaam alaikum and alhamdulillah, you are safe. It's so good to see you blogging. Be well. I'm waiting out Hurricane Dennis. Many duas, brother.
PS: Cat, you don't know about the arts of the Muslim world? That's very sad because you are missing out on a lot of beauty. I am an artist myself and I have been painting for many years. I run a little group of about 82 Muslims called the Islamic Artists Society and I am creating a magazine focusing on the arts of the Islamic world-past and present. Islam is far from drab, especially its love poetry, tilework, tapestries, mosque architecture, etc. It's quite uplifting and exciting. I can send you some of my work and the work of other Muslims. In fact you can check out some stuff here. www.islamic-artists.blogspot.com.
Posted by: Izzy Mo | July 8, 2005 8:07 PM
Kitty litter suffers from the same disease that most apologists for terrorism suffer from : Islamophobia. Anybody who tries to gloss over the crusades, new and old is not someone worth talking to. Let the ignorant rot.
Posted by: DrM | July 8, 2005 9:07 PM
read your blog....muslims have produced art and science over the centuries...western man was just learning to write and talk when the culture of the ancients bloomed...all of us christian jew muslim must learn from each other...it is the only way we will survive into the next century...peace to all the souls of london ....learning every day...pat...usa
Posted by: Pat | July 9, 2005 2:07 AM
Hi Pat, I agree with you. But it is important to curb the tendency to say such-and-such a group of people have produced X developments over the centuries when such-and-such a people were doing nothing. This is something quite alien to the Islamic way of thinking. Because, what matters in every action is the benefit that results from it, and if you are religious - also the benefit that is carried over to the next world. As they say in Islam, whoever prides himself over anything other than God's Friendship is a loser - literally. The attitude whereby one people look down at another people because of what they have produced in terms of "manufacture" is really baffling. Nothing but a complexity. It is also interesting for us as muslims because the Qur'an says..i.e God says in the Qur'an "Shall I tell you of the Greatest losers..., those who squandered their striving in this world whilst thinking they were perfecting their arts/manufacture/etc". Having said that, Islam does not frown on progress or anything like that. It is the complexity that comes with it that is being addressed here. Someone proudly thinking "they" have given so much to the world. And what does a man have if he gives so much to the world and loses his soul?
cat is obviously in his own little world, I am sorry to say. And there are multitude of people like this out there. Isn't that sad? No offence to you cat, ...just stating the facts (as I see it). And contrary to what the media may suggest, the muslims are in principle the most tolerant people in the world today. But that does not mean tolerating nonsense. Our religion respects other religions and we do not condemn people to hell. We don't necessary agree with these religions but we respect them since it all originally from the same God. How far are the Islamic teachings from all the nonsense we hear from our so called intelligent experts on the media. "May the Eastern Wind be far from the cow dung".
Posted by: anonymous | July 9, 2005 11:07 AM
Cat,
When was the last time your invented anything, why are you sponging off of a few englightened scientist and developers that happen to live in your country or your hemisphere? Its only underacheievers like yourself who says things like that, while real scientist are busy being productive.
Posted by: bikhair | July 10, 2005 8:07 PM
Cat, I've read your posts numerous times now, and have yet to find out what on earth your point is. What relevance do arts, literature, inventions etc have to the topic of discussion, which is, unless I'm mistaken, the murderous acts of a minority group of extremist terrorists. A very valid point was made earlier - these people have as much to do with the Muslim faith as David Kuresh did with Christianity, yet you suggest that because they believe they are acting Islamically, they are - that would obviously be very convenient for your own little narrow-minded way of thinking, but unfortunately for you, that's not how it works. Islamic beliefs do not include indiscriminate murder of innocent people, much as you might like them to. As for the whole 'art, literature, inventions and entertainment' argument, unless you're living some kind of a self-sufficient lifestyle, producing all your own food and power, without access to the TV or internet (which clearly isn't the case) then I think you'll find that you are benefiting from entertainment and arts you haven't contributed to, literature you didn't write (based on the standard displayed here, I don't think there's much of a market for it) and inventions you didn't personally create - as do the majority of people living in the world today. Were you shouting 'sponging b@stards' at the footage of Africans on Live 8 last week? No, I thought not. Get over your inherent racism and keep your pointless opinions to yourself.
Posted by: Rachel Fletcher | July 12, 2005 1:07 PM
I think youâÂÂll find that you are benefiting from entertainment and arts you havenâÂÂt contributed to, literature you didnâÂÂt write ...
The difference is that no original though whatsoever has come out of the Muslim world for around 1,000 years. Of course not every Westerner is an original thinker, but in Islam, original thought is explicitly forbidden. That's why the Muslim world is in such a terrible state and Muslims want to come and live in the West.
Racism? Just remind me, what race are Muslims?
Posted by: Cat | July 12, 2005 3:07 PM
I apologise for that, should have been more specific - do you prefer Islamophobic? As for the lack of original thought, if the Muslims hadn't made such advances in little things like maths, astronomy, navigation, timepieces, medical sciences, you can bet the western world wouldn't be where it is now in terms of cultural development. Just trying to make the point that it's foolish to damn an entire civilisation for the acts of a few individuals, and there are more useful things to say than make snide comments about how 'backward' their religion is. LifeâÂÂs too short for this stuff, try to be happy.
Posted by: Rachel | July 12, 2005 8:07 PM
If the Muslim world could, for once, accept criticism, this might go some way towards putting things right. But no, it's all got to be the fault of the West. Islam is perfect.
Muslims took over advanced cultures, and the advances in science etc that you mention took place before Islam had managed to stifle the creativity in those cultures. For 1,000 years nothing orginal has come out of the Muslim world. Nothing.
And I am happy. Very happy that I'm not a Muslim.
Posted by: Cat | July 12, 2005 9:07 PM
Why try to apportion blame? These events are clearly not the responsibility of either the Muslim world or the Western, but of the individuals involved. Would you seriously have every Muslim admit culpability and apologise for what happened last Thursday in London? I am not religious, I don't believe that Islam is perfect, or Christianity come to that, these religions do not fit my personal system of values and beliefs. However, I do appreciate that they try to teach people to live together in peace and tolerance, and that itâÂÂs simplistic to blame them for the behaviour of maniacs who believe they are acting on the word of God or Allah.
If you are so happy not being a Muslim, why do you spend your time posting on websites dedicated to Islamic issues? Why not just avoid them? Just a thought, maybe youâÂÂd be even happier.
Posted by: Rachel | July 13, 2005 3:07 PM
Are you so sure that it was Islam, and not the destruction caused by the Mongol invasions, that made the Middle East turn its back on science and technology? Look at how backward Russia was (at least pre-20th century) compared with Western Europe...
Posted by: George Carty | July 13, 2005 4:07 PM