There's an article on a Jewish blog called Adloyada about dialogue between us and them, and in this particular case it involved our very own Abdul-Hakeem Murad, best known for his translations and articles on traditional Islam but also (and I didn't know this) imam of Cambridge mosque. The Jewish participant was Rabbi Jeremy Gordon of the Masorti Synagogue in St Albans, on the northern outskirts of London, and the occasion for the dialogue was the near-coincidence of Rosh Hashana (their new year) and the start of Ramadan.
The author of Adloyada is someone who has "done quite a bit of professional work with Muslims around their schools and around potential and actual partnership projects with Jews", and also advised the governors and head of a Muslim school in northern England about "key matters of policy and decision making in their school". She describes visiting Regents' Park Mosque in London along with "the eminent scholar" (it's not clear which one) thus:
I found my visit great fun. And that was because the experience of meeting the governors and the head was rather like meeting distant members of your family, from a branch that was estranged from yours over a few generations. There was the same delighted surprise in finding, not only that you believed the same sort of things, but also they had kept going some particularly idiosyncratic family traditions that you hadn't realised went back that far. And you heard the same stories, only told from their family's point of view and not your own. Only what we were talking about was not family lore, but Islamic and Jewish ideas about education, and how those relate to the legal and other demands of the English National Curriculum.All those discussions have convinced me that Islam and Judaism are and remain close cousins. That the two faiths are much closer to each other than is Judaism to Christianity. I found all those experiences personally enriching and very enjoyable. They don't seem to me to sit well with the politicised Islamism which is the stuff of headlines.
This is, of course, a sentiment which wouldn't sit well with a lot Muslims you might tell it to, who tend to perceive Judaism as being an empty, heartless religion practised by empty, heartless people. And yet, when defending from the militant secular lobby our rights to continue practising ritual slaughter, guess who our only allies are? The relationships between us and them (and Christians as well, come to that) are complicated and it's not as simple as saying "they're our enemies". The best example is that we can work together for common moral standpoints and for some common interests (like faith schools, as the author acknowledges) and achieve some mutual understanding, as long as we do not compromise our own integrity.
Also, her post mentions my pet hate of over-accommodation, which is when non-Muslims bend over backwards to accommodate us in ways we don't even suggest, such as (in this case) a Christian schoolteacher asking a Jewish child to write "peace be upon him" after the name of the Prophet Muhammad (sall' Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam). I have seen much hypocrisy in this - the "obligatory PBUH" is something you'll see from time to time in articles advancing clearly anti-Islamic positions, and in any case it's not sufficient for a Muslim to write just this.
In some cases, Muslims also make unreasonable demands, as in the "Dudley pig ban" which has caused much hilarity and ridicule, although I heard Muslims on a late-night LBC phone-in say it was ridiculous. Pigs are part of the landscape in England, and it's no great insult to call someone a pig. If the pig figures are displayed in a way calculated to insult, that's a different story. Although it's easy to get stress relievers which aren't pig shaped.
Anyway it's a long and interesting post, and worth reading.
I appreciate your last two paragraphs. I think Muslims really need to realise that these countries that they live in are Darul Kufr and a responsibility of the leaders of thier countries, similar to the responsibilities of the leaders in Muslim countries is that they protect thier citizens. Thats another issue though. Muslims need not be so haughty all the dam time because its bad adab and especially bad dawah. About the only relationship I can see with the Jews that is one of justice is commerce. Anything else we should try to keep to ourselves. Rasulullah (sallalu alaihi wa salam), in the book of Mortgage, in Sahih Bukhari trading with the Jews and had commerce with them. Its from the Sunnah and while Ramadan is here we should absorb its precedence ASAP.
Ramadhan mubarik!!
I think Muslims really need to realise that these countries that they live in are Darul Kufr
I resent you referring to my country in such an insulting fashion. Rather than denigrate the tolerant, advanced Western societies that they are lucky enough to live in, they should integrate or leave.
Old Pickler what is your obsession with the word Kufr/Kafir. It simply means those who don't believe in Islam- what's insulting about that. Jews also have a words for non-believers, Shkutzim and Shiksas, which i understand are far more insulting and derogatory.
Imran - I'm not obsessed with it, but it sounds insulting and seems to be used as an insult by some posting here.
Besides, I'm not a non-believer, I'm just not a Muslim. Why not say 'non-Muslim' as a neutral term?
Dear Indigo-- I am most touched and pleased that you have featured my post in the way you have. I am not at all surprised to find myself agreeing with everything you have to say, apart from that, about Muslim and Jewish relationships with other faith groups here. Thank you.
Imran-- the words you quote as Jewish words for non-believers are low level slang and have no place in the serious lexicon of discussions in our faith literature-- the Torah, the Talmud and the commentaries-- about our relationships with non Jews. The key word is "goyim", which means "the nations". There is also some mention of the Jews themselves as a "goy kadosh"-- a holy nation-- so that the word "goy" does not refer to non-Jews only. So therefore if you are looking to find an equivalent to "Kufr/Kafir", then I would say "goy" is appropriate. I would never use the low-level words you quoted, nor would any genuinely observant Jew aware of the divine commands that we must greet all people with a smile, and with genuine courtesy, and that all we humans are made in the divine image.
Ramadan mubarak to all Muslim readers of this comment.
Assalaamu alaikum,
A few years ago, I came across a really good "Judaism 101" kind of website, and I spent an evening reading most of it. It was fascinating to see the similarities between Judaism and Islam. On the other hand, there were differences that just seem like they could never be resolved - e.g., the Jewish rituals that can only be performed in the temple in Jerusalem (AlQuds).
In any case, it is important to note that Islam considers Jews to be "People of the Book", like Christians, and that the current animosity is due to Israeli policy, and not purely religion.
Ann,
The current animosity is big business in the country and in Isreal probably. The Palestinians strike me as very secular not really that observant Muslims, and Allah knows best. When you leave Islam for secular solutions than this is what you get.
Old Pickler,
If you have a problem with kafir, too bad. I consider it insulting because I believe Islam is the truth, so any word that describes a person who rejects the truth, is insulting. But if you are proud of not being a believer in Tawheed- Islamic monotheism, than you shouldnt have a problem with kafir, anymore than I should have a problem with being called an infidel.
Adloyada,
What kind of name is that? I have some questions about Judaism, and perhaps this blog isnt the place to discuss them, Yusuf is a nice brother, when he wants to be, and will not delete my post.
Now in Islam we take our religious precedence from the Quran, the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammed, and the understanding of those Muslims who were of his genreation and the generation that proceeded that one. How can you best compare and contrast the sources for Jewish law, with the sources for Islamic law and polity.
I know I am bombarding this topic but that brother Abdul Hakeem Murad has some hardcore Arabic under his belt, MashAllah. One day for me, one day.
brownwonder: Judy at Adloyada explained the origins of her nickname in her first blog entry.
As I understood it, Christians and Jews were supposed to be 'people of the book' not Kuffar (or whatever the plural is). Anyway, you guys wouldn't like to be called heathens would you?
I thought Ramadan was supposed to be about reflection and tolerance. Is that just a pretence?
Brownwonder- I think Old Pickler is right- Ramadan is a time for tolerence and restraint, you should refrain from goading and insults, even if you are provoked. It's a time when we should be setting an example to others (we should at all times anyway).
Old Pickler- I can see your point about the word Kufr/Kafir having a negative connotation- but personally if i describe someone as Kafir i don't mean it as an insult. I rarely use the word in an English conversation, but i would occasionaly use it when speaking to someone in Urdu because there is no alternative Urdu word for a non-muslim (not that i think of).
Ps. Ramadan Mubarak
Imran,
I think Old Pickler is wrong. Besides if he/she wants to say something about Ramadan ans what it means to Muslims he/she needs to bring the proof.
You know, there are somethings that are always intolerable inside of Ramadan and outside of Ramadan and that is shirk, bidah, and kufar. If anything Ramadan is the time where we as Muslims, by reading more Quran, by going to the Masjid, by being with other Muslims, try to purge these things from our religion. Kufr doesnt become tolerable because it is Ramdan. I've never heard of it.
Besides, I dont know why she finds being called a kafir offensive when said admitted to being one.
And for the record, being regarded as a heathen doesnt bother me if it means that I reject everything other than Islam.
I am breaking my promise not to post anything here during Ramadan.
But if may, just one comment...and thoughts.
Old pickler is right about using the work Kafir.
Strange, you are right about something!!!!! Old pickler!
It should'nt be used to described Christians, Jews, here we are talking about practising Christian and Jews, not just someone called "John" but who doesn't believe in Jesus, or doesn't go to church....(although I can appreciate why he wouldn't want to go to church!)
....even pagans are often referred to in the Koran as mushriqs (polytheist) as opposed to Kafirs (outright rejectors)... Perhaps because there is still some element of deification there...i.e. wanting to reach out to the truth however blurry their approach. However, Iman is still undoubtedly missing...and where there is no Iman, there is really nothing! Alhamdulilah for Iman. Alhamdulilah for the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Alhamdulilah for Allah's Mercy.
The word Kafir has different shades, however it's safest use is in describing someone who confirms himself/herself to be an atheist.
Or someone who rejects the principle that Allah sends inspiration to man through Prophets. This is still tantamount to atheism. Cos if there is God, he cannot be isolated from anything in existence! Or rejecting the mission of Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc (peace be upon them all)...i.e. rejecting that they were not divinely inspired.
Or, even, ...rejecting that what the Prophets (peace be upon them) brought, most importantly the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Truth.
But, in order for such as person to be called Kafir, it needs to be established that he/she is reasonably aware of what the Prophet brought...and inspite of this awareness he/she rejects it - because he/she thinks he/she knows better or knows someone else who is more "learned" "enlightened" than the Prophet....
I think the opinion of the hanafi school is different on this. Regardless of whether you know (what the prophet's message were) or not, I think the hanafis say that - every rejectors rejection ultimately goes back to a quality in him/her which in and of itself is a proof of his Kufr, however unprovable until he/she pronounces it... Otherwise he/she would have spent his energy and time to find out the truth just as he spends his energy and time to gather food etc
So, brownwonder still has a point.
Sorry if this sounds waffly.
Anyhow, the prophet (saw) warned us about using this word, ....it even becomes more serious against anyone who is or might be a muslim. And there are some hadiths that actually indicates caution in pronouncing the judgment of Kufr. One particular hadith is quite unbelievable when I heard it.... it is so broad to the point where all these heretical sects can easily fall within the fold....but ofcourse not, they only wish! I am referring to the hadith of whoever says "La ilaha illa Allah....." There are explanations that defines the hadith accordingly.
Brownwonder, Ramadan Mubarak to you and your family. You made dua'a for me once on this blog. I also want to say may Allah shower his blessings and mercy on you in this blessed month. And make your feet firm on the Koran and sunnah. And my feet too!!!
Mashallah, I hear you make so much reference to the Koran and Sunnah...
It's a shame however, our natures in these days have lost the right affinity with the guidance of Koran and Sunnah...hence the need for bidah (ofcourse within the realms of permissibility - mubah)....with it we move gradually upwards, gradually moving ...until the guidance of Koran and sunnah can have its intended effect.
But, in order for such as person to be called Kafir, it needs to be established that he/she is reasonably aware of what the Prophet brought...and inspite of this awareness he/she rejects it
Uh, no, that's not correct. This is a popular modern non-Arab understanding. Traditional Arab religious texts always used the word kafir when talking about non-Muslims. The word means disbeliever, rather than enemy. This is a separate issue from using it as a term of address, which is what is explicitly warned against.
Yusuf,
You always need a proof tho.
You can't pronounce that someone is a kafir without an evidence that is specific to him/her.
In anycase, I am sure we agree that it is not best adab to use the word kafir in a sweeping way....unless you don't really mean what
you are saying (literally).
But then again, it is not best adab to say what you don't mean.
Tariq Ramadan suggests that we are in dar al-Da'wa, or dar al-shahada, not dar al-kufr.