In today’s Times, it’s reported that Rita Verdonk (what a name!), the “hardline” integration minister of the Netherlands, has told the country’s Parliament that “she was going to investigate where and when the burka should be banned”. The author, Anthony Browne, calls the burka “traditional clothing in some Islamic societies [which] covers a womanâs face and body, leaving only a strip of gauze for the eyes”. Marcus, a regular blogger at Harry’s Place, calls it “further evidence of how deeply the murder of Theo Van Gogh has affected Dutch society”.
It’s interesting that this piece was written by Anthony Browne, who has in the past printed articles attacking Muslims which were somewhat selective in their use of facts. Shaikh Riyadh Nadwi, an imam in Oxford, pulled apart Browne’s article in the Spectator of 27th March this year, in which he reeled off a list of places where Christians were being persecuted by Muslims, and even supposedly in some European countries, but failed to mention Israel:
At the time of the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, it is estimated that the Christians in Palestine numbered some 350,000. Almost 20 per cent of the total population at the time, they constituted a vibrant and ancient community, living in harmony with their Muslim neighbours for over a thousand years. … Of the 750,000 Palestinians that were forced from their homes in 1948, some 50,000 were Christians â 7 per cent of the total number of refugees and 15 per cent of the total number of Christians living in Palestine at the time.
In the process of âJudaizingâ Palestine, numerous convents, hospices, seminaries, and churches were either destroyed or cleared of their Christian owners and custodians. In one of the most spectacular attacks on a Christian target, on 17 May 1948, the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate was shelled with about 100 mortar rounds, launched by Zionist forces from the already occupied monastery of the Benedictine Fathers on Mount Zion. The bombardment also damaged St Jacobâs Convent, the Archangelâs Convent, their appended churches, two elementary and seminary schools, as well as their libraries. Eight people were killed and 120 wounded.
Shaikh Nadwi concludes that people like Browne and Patrick Sookhdeo, a Christian polemicist with a similar blind spot, have an intention “to foment anger against Muslims in the West” and that they have a pro-Israeli agenda. In this particular article, he reveals his ignorance by continually calling the garment a burka. There is a mass of literature online about Muslim women’s veiling, a lot of it produced by the women themselves, and they don’t call it a burka; they usually call it a niqab. It is not the Afghan-style burqa pictured on the Harry’s Place entry linked above; it’s usually a black veil which does not cover the eyes, and most of those that do can “flip up” so that the woman can see more clearly. (There is also the Gulf burqa, which is also a small black face-only veil, in which metal is sometimes used. Wealthier women sometimes wear exquisitely-decorated burqas, believe it or not.)
Verdonk’s attitude reveals the culture of contempt for Muslims’ values which lie behind such repressive measures:
Mrs Verdonk gave warning that the âtime of cosy tea-drinkingâ with Muslim groups had passed and that natives and immigrants should have the courage to be critical of each other. She recently cancelled a meeting with Muslim leaders who refused to shake her hand because she was a woman.
It’s not mentioned whether the Muslim leaders she was meeting were foreign or born in the Netherlands, but either way it’s not a wise tactic to make any negotiations conditional on the other side’s participation in your pointless and malicious show of contempt for their religion. The decision actually sounds like a calculated insult by Verdonk and/or the people around her: set up a meeting, send a woman to meet a group of men (or vice versa), and pull out when the rebuff for which you set yourselves up materialises.
The Netherlands, if this ban goes ahead (and Browne thinks it will, because the ruling party has the support of the far right in Parliament), it will be the third country in which such bans have been imposed; the others being Italy and certain areas in Belgium. In Italy, the laws being invoked are old ones dating back to the time of Mussolini. Spurious security concerns have been invoked in each case, when in reality these countries have not suffered any violence from the various groups associated with the “global jihad”. The Netherlands has seen one murder, of a professional arsehole who made it his mission to offend everyone. People should remember this before they justify it on the grounds that the world has started seeing female suicide bombers; the point is, none of the countries which ban the niqab or interfere with Muslim women’s rights in other ways has suffered terrorism from Muslim women.
The report brought out the real jafi element among the Harry’s Place comment-box regulars. The first serious jafi appeared in comment no. 6:
Wearing a burka is like wearing a neon sign that says “my menfolk are jerks” except jerks isn’t the word I would use.
I see these gals walking down the street, forced to advertise just how repulsive their men are, and it’s no wonder they all have such tragic eyes.
When I see tiny, prepubescent girls wearing the full black burka, I want to report the child abuse that’s being inflicted on them.
Now, Browne’s report makes it clear that only a few dozen women in the Netherlands cover their face (the Daily Mail’s report on the same topic said fewer than 100), but even so, to say this does not take into account the fact that women sometimes choose to wear it themselves, and some women cover their faces on some occasions (such as religious gatherings) and not on others. I’ve never come across “tiny, prepubescent girls” wearing it, at least not in this country. Islam is clear on this point; the necessity of wearing hijab starts at puberty.
Fellow jafi “Old Peculier” comes in at no. 7:
You mean intelligent women who dislike Islam because it is the most misogynist force ever to have cursed the planet? Yep, count me in. But ‘Muslim hater’ - no, I feel sorry for them, particularly the women, who are its victims.
Again, no taking into account the notion of the women having any choice in the matter. It’s an article of faith for this sort that they don’t. OP comes in again further down to allege that the “burkha” “is such an intrinsically oppressive garment that nobody would freely choose to wear one”, but only wear because of “very real threats of violence, or by brainwashing that effectively has turned them insane.
Harry’s Place at one point gained the nickname “Little Green Soccer Balls” ([link], seventh comment down), because of the material which dominated its comments box:
But somehow, I’ve been banned on four separate occasions, whereas people who post nothing but abuse, SWP talking points or, to be frank, outright Islam-hatred, don’t appear to ever have been banned at all.
As far as I can tell, the power of the ban has been used nearly exclusively at Harry’s Place to get rid of people who were dangerously close to winning arguments against the hosts (cf: the “International Law Wars”), while leaving enough morons present to allow the impression to remain that Harry, Marcus and the “Decent Left” were taking on all comers and emerging triumphant.
That’s the exact policy of Charles Whatshisface at Little Green Footballs, who also allows outright hate speech to remain while deleting civil disagreement with the prevailing rather extremist line. It’s why I coined the nickname “Little Green Soccer Balls” for your blog, and why it stuck.
To be fair, Harry’s Place is nothing like as bad as LGF ever was or as Robert Spencer’s comment boxes were the last time I bothered to venture into them. He posts story after story, and dozens of comments come in their wake from jafi after jafi. The jafi element at Harry’s Place are actually more sarcastic and don’t gratuitously insult Islam. But it’s still not a place worth going if you want civilised discussion on pretty much any topic related to Islam.
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- Panorama and other media coverage of the Gilderdale affair
- The differences between the Inglis and Gilderdale murder cases
- On Mercy
Dear IndiGo Jo Yusuf Smith,
I have some questions for you my friend about the strange phenomena known as sufism.
Many thanks in advance. Your brother in sufism.
Asalam Aliakum Yusuf, Nice post. Lets be real, they just want to ban Muslims, this has nothing to do with “integration.” Its ok to fry your brain on pot, and allow [gays] to marry, but a Muslim woman cant dress as she wants. I wonder when they’ll try to ban us from praying…. Guess I’ll have to cancel my vacation plan for the Netherlands.
Why is Rita Verdonk any more worth remark as a name than- say- Yusuf Smith or Riyadh Nadwi? The problem with Nadwi’s response to Browne and Sookhdeo is that it isn’t a response at all: it’s simply a claim that others are as bad. If what Browne and Sookhdeo say is true then it’s contemptible behaviour regardless of what happened or happens in Israel.
Is it true you guys turn the lights off and chant like some B horror movie whilst banging your head like a heavy metal road-show?
No.
Is it true you guys spin around like ballerinaâs on acid?
No.
Is it true that sufiâs can fly like drunk through a window?
No.
Hey Yusuf
Its ok to fry your brain on pot, and allow poofters to marry, but a Muslim woman cant dress as she wants.
Nice comments thread. I thought I’d stumbled into some far right religious site. etc. etc. etc.
PS. I’d be interested to know what sort of glass have you have used to build your house.
David T: point taken. I’ve had Muslims complaining about the content of DrM’s comments, actually.
Oh ho hum! The Muslims are pissed off because the kafirs are acting exactly the way Allah (azawjal) said they would act towards them. What a shock!
Yusuf this is an old story about how the kafirs hate Muslims and Islam no matter how moderate or radical we come. (I, by the way hate those terms.)
Here in America, you Europeans are so pittied by the right in my country about how you are being run over by Muslims courtesy. They even speak about how there is a huge Turkish population in Germany, as if the average Turk gave two flips about his/her religion, wa Allahu alim.
Keep up the losing fight brother Yusuf, their enmity will last until Qiyamah.
Actually David, considering the website you’re affiliated with, I wouldnt speak of glass houses and far right nugttery if I were you.
David: Iâll come right out and admit I find Dr. Mâs comments offensive â though this one’s quite mild by comparison. Iâve been haranguing Yusuf about this for quite some time now. Nevertheless Yusuf cannot be blamed for the comments on his blog. Criticise him for the content of his post, not for the comments theyâve generated.
as if the average Turk gave two flips about his/her religion, wa Allahu alim.
So, after dismissing the religion of Pakistanis, the all-seeing sage now turns to cast her gaze over the heart of “average” (Muslim) Turk. Have some humility, please. Why not pray for them to return to the right path if they are truly wayward, rather than casting them into the abyss?
assalaamu alaykum
Nevertheless Yusuf cannot be blamed for the comments on his blog. Criticise him for the content of his post, not for the comments theyâve generated.
I would agree, completely. Yusuf and I have written to each other privately about this problem, and the different ways we’ve tried to deal with it.
The decision actually sounds like a calculated insult by Verdonk and/or the people around her: set up a meeting, send a woman to meet a group of men (or vice versa), and pull out when the rebuff for which you set yourselves up materialises.
On the contrary. It is malicious and contemptuous not to shake a woman’s hand. What about women’s rights not to be treated as unclean and inferior beings, especially as this is Holland we are talking about, where men and women are equal?
Tolerance is a two way street. If Muslim men behave like this they must take the consequences. I would not employ a man who refused to shake my hand, whatever his religion. It is simply unacceptably rude.
Brownwonder,
Are you really suprised that non-Muslims are begining to loathe Muslims and the death-cult that is Islam. I left Islam a number of years ago, and I positively feel genocidal when I hear of yet another Muslim outrage.
You refer to your fellow citizens as kafirs, how sad, how pathetic. You sound like a hormone-charged teenager who is not very happy with his lot in the dar al-harb. An easy remedy for an armchair Jihadi such as yourself would be to join your co-religionists in Iraq to fight, in the words of al zarqawi, the “soldiers of the crusaders”
Don’t be such a pussy pick up a kalashnikov and fight, just think, when you become a martyr its Miller time!
Assalaamu alaikum,
Brownwonder, you really should be careful when questioning the piety of millions of Turks. And probably the average Turk is more religious than you might think.
Dr M, you are such a wonderful example of tolerance and understanding, how could anyone not want to convert to your relgion at once? There is so much hatred in what you post. I don’t agree with some things Ann says, but at least she seems to be a thoughtful person. Whatever religion you were, you’d put people right off it.
Bikhair here…
Old Pickler, in Islam it is not obligatory for you to correct someone if it is not done with the sufficient knowledge from the Quran and the Sunnah. If you have no knowledge and evidence for what you say about Islam, your opinions are to be ignored according to the Sharia.
“What about women’s rights not to be treated as unclean and inferior beings, especially as this is Holland we are talking about, where men and women are equal?”
I am sorry but from what text or sources of Islam did you read to convince you that the reason why men and women dont shake hands is because a woman is unclean? I am a Muslim woman and I dont shake a man’s hand when it is extended to me. I dont think he is dirty, but I believe that you shouldnt touch or have close encounters with non-mahram men or women unless obsolutely positively necessary. Look that up on Google you idiot.
“If Muslim men behave like this they must take the consequences.”
If the consequnece is that they dont get to touch non-mahram women, than they are in luck.
If you are upset that the brown swarthy foreigner doesnt want to touch you, get some self esteem.
Spencred,
Please, call me Bikhair.
“Are you really suprised that non-Muslims are begining to loathe Muslims and the death-cult that is Islam.”
Allah (azawajal) and Prophet Muhammed (sallalhu alaihi wa salam) never refered to Islam as a dealth cult. I get my understanding of Islam from the aforementioned sources and the understanding of the companions of Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) and thier companions the Tabieen. Whatever they said or didnt say about what Islam is or isnt, I say or dont say about what Islam is or isnt. They are my teachers, my ONLY teachers.
“I left Islam a number of years ago, and I positively feel genocidal when I hear of yet another Muslim outrage.”
Genocidal? I feel positively positive during Ramadan.
“You refer to your fellow citizens as kafirs, how sad, how pathetic.”
When they pronounce kufr they are kafirs. At the very least, we can all agree and is a fact, according to the Quran and the Sunnah, that a person that pronounces and acts upon his kufr is a kafir; Islam being a death cult is an unagreed upon opinion. I have more of a right to my views than you.
“You sound like a hormone-charged teenager who is not very happy with his lot in the dar al-harb.”
I have a question. What makes the country I live in Darul Harb? Please provide the text. I am according to the Sharia, unable to take your word for it.
“An easy remedy for an armchair Jihadi such as yourself would be to join your co-religionists in Iraq to fight, in the words of al zarqawi, the “soldiers of the crusaders”
Al-Zarqawi who?
“Don’t be such a pussy pick up a kalashnikov and fight, just think, when you become a martyr its Miller time!”
You know I can become a martyr is many ways, as a woman if I die in child birth, die by fire, wild animal, drowning, etc. An every better way for a coward like me to die a martyr is if my intention for jihad is sincere,so much so that if the banner of Jihad were raised,and I was certain to go, I can die in my bed a shaheed, based upon my intention Allah (azawjal) is so Merciful. Its infathomable.
“…its Miller time!”
The above implies that Muslims would be getting drunk in paradise after martydom. That is an incorrect opinion. Had you read anything from Ibn Abbas (radiyallahu anhu) about paradise you would know that one of the many glories of paradise is that its inhabitants dont get sick. Drunkness is a sickness. According to Ibn Abbas the wine doesnt make you drunk, doesnt make you vomit, and doesnt give you head or stomach ache. So it will not be miller time, it will be more like cider time. Allahu alim. Check Ibn Kathirs tafisr for the details.
Ann,
You are right, and I shoudnt have said what I said about Turks. All knowledge is with Allah (aazawajal). Sometimes I should shut my big mouth, but you know how it is being human and all.
Please call me Bikhair.
Thabet,
DOnt say that about me. I know sometimes I say things that only a jerk would say. I apologize.
Actually old prickler, now you’re practising projection. How petty can you get? Using anything you can to post retarded and thinly veiled racist rants against Muslims. Only the most ignorant idiot would fault Muslims for respecting the opposite sex in such a way, despite the fact that it is common in non-western cultures to limit physical contact with unrelated members of the opposite sex. I wonder what kind of religion produces mental defectives like you..get over yourself and your petty hatred.
If the consequnece is that they dont get to touch non-mahram women, than they are in luck.
If you are upset that the brown swarthy foreigner doesnt want to touch you, get some self esteem.
A handshake is the way civilised people in the West, male and female, greet each other. If Muslims do not wish to observe these basic courtesies they should not be living here. Race has absolutely nothing to do with it - you have no idea what race I am - and your words are extremely offensive.
I would not employ a Muslim man who would not shake my hand when being interviewed, because such a man would alienate female customers and staff.
If Muslims want to be part of the West they should fit in. Or leave.
We are expected to treat Muslims with kid gloves, tiptoe round their sensibilities, even removing china pigs, yet this is not reciprocated in any way. No wonder the Dutch are getting fed up.
Brownwonder,
For sake of brevity I’ll make this short. I call Islam a death cult or a mental disorder for a number of reasons, and certainly don’t dignify it with the moniker “one of the three great Abrahamic faiths” Why, because I really believe that Jihadis throughout history have been demon,possessed (figuratively speaking) and they unfortunately represent the true Islam. I’ve seen too many videos of innocent men who after making their “confessions” in front of a banner carrying the name of Zarqawi’s al_Qaeda Group of Jihad in the land of Two Rivers, the video showed each man having his head sawed off. The heads were held aloft by the men’s slaughterers and put on their backs to shouts of Allahu Akbar, or God is greatest… This is not aberrant behavior on the part of some members of the Ummah these modern companions of the “prophet” are just reverting to form and behaving exactly like Muhammad and his companions did back in the 7th cent. I don’t have to remind you that he did behead the male members of the Jewish tribe, Banu Quraiza. And if memory serves and it certainly does, he chose RayÂhana from all the widows(they were many) to add to his harem. What a lovely man.
You know what I mean when I mention dar al-harb(abode of war) stop blowing smoke. This designation has been in use since the very begining of the global jihad 1400 years ago. The post-Christian west is very much part of the dar al-harb
If the proverbial cellestial wine is not going to make the hoi polloi of paradise drunk or at least a bit tipsy then why was wine touted as a reward in heaven. Why not promise good Muslims grape juice?
Whirling,
If all Muslims were Sufi, and all Christians were Quakers, there would be far less violence in the world.
Does the same apply to observant Orthodox Jews, Old Pickler?
Old Pickler,
“A handshake is the way civilised people in the West, male and female, greet each other.”
You know Muslim men shake the hands of other other men, that is Sunnah, so do the women. We just shake each others hand.
“If Muslims do not wish to observe these basic courtesies they should not be living here.”
Really? And I thought the Muslims were insecure.
“Race has absolutely nothing to do with it - you have no idea what race I am - and your words are extremely offensive.”
Waa Waa Waa!
“I would not employ a Muslim man who would not shake my hand when being interviewed, because such a man would alienate female customers and staff.”
Well if you are the only employer in you country than the Muslims have a big problem on thier hands.
“If Muslims want to be part of the West they should fit in. Or leave.”
You are being unreasonable and childish.
“We are expected to treat Muslims with kid gloves, tiptoe round their sensibilities…”
No you arent. If that were the case you’d tell your young girls to cover thier behind when they walk down the street. LoL. I kid.
“…even removing china pigs, yet this is not reciprocated in any way.”
You people do that for political reasons. That has nothing to do with Muslims. Dont blame us for your stupid policies thats about getting votes and power in the end. You guys ever hear of personal responsibility.
Please spencred, call me Bikhair.
“…certainly don’t dignify it with the moniker “one of the three great Abrahamic faiths”
I dont mind.
“I don’t have to remind you that he did behead the male members of the Jewish tribe, Banu Quraiza.”
Why did he behead them? Did he behead them because, as memory serves me correctly, thier Arab patrons from the Aws tribe were selected by Muhammed to pass judgement on these poor fellows. Sa’d ibn Mu’ad was chosen to prescribe the punishment for his Jewish allies and what was his judgement…
I should remind you Spencred, that this isnt traditional Islamic law to kill all male captives. In fact if you read Deuteronomy, you will see that it is actually Jewish tradition to do that. Hows that for religious tolerance.
The Imam of the Muslims, where much power lies, decides what happens to them. The above mentioned incident was the exception not the rule. The Imam can decide to ransom them, as was common, offer them a dhimmi, as was common, enslave them, as was common.
“And if memory serves and it certainly does, he chose RayÂhana from all the widows(they were many) to add to his harem. What a lovely man.”
I would say that was very lovely. Women in 7th century Arabian werent anything without the gaurdianship of their menfolk. Whether they be Jewish, Pagan, Christian, or Muslim. Sorry there wasnt a UN refugee camp back then.
“You know what I mean when I mention dar al-harb(abode of war) stop blowing smoke.”
Actually I dont know what you mean. When it comes to the Sharia, I am not supposed to know what YOU mean. I am, Muslims are, supposed to know what the texts mean.
“This designation has been in use since the very begining of the global jihad 1400 years ago.”
If this is the case, you can provide me the evidence to show me. I will help you out. Abu Hanifah wrote about it, Imam Shafi and Hanifi had something to say about what constitutes Darul- Harb. You should also consult Ibn Taymiyah as he wrote extensively about such issues.
“If the proverbial cellestial wine is not going to make the hoi polloi of paradise drunk or at least a bit tipsy then why was wine touted as a reward in heaven. Why not promise good Muslims grape juice?”
Are you serious?
These euro-fascists always amuse with their creativity about their “values.” Old prickler” and spenturd” are fine examples which would make the Fuhrer proud. Nobody is forcing you insecure nazi remnents to do anything or accept anyone. Mind your own bloody business and keep your racism to yourselves, Muslims dont need to prove anything to the likes of you. I notice you duck the question when it applies rabbis and observent jews who follow many of the same practices as Muslims when it comes to relations with unrelated members of the opposite sex. I wonder why? If you dont like it, feel free to leave. I’m not surprised that the same continent which gave us the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and Franco, in addition to two of the most destructive wars in human history is behaving like this. A true cult of death if there ever was one.
salams
I just explain very nicely to any non-Muslim man who puts out his hand for me to shake, why I cannot do so. Ususally he accepts it and we all get on with our life. The end.
People who want to get offended because I won’t shake their hand, like its the most disgusting discourteous action I could subject them to, well, thats just up to them.
I would not employ a Muslim man who would not shake my hand when being interviewed, because such a man would alienate female customers and staff.
By not shaking their hands? As long as he does the job he is paid to do and is polite and courteous how could that alienate female customers. I’m sure they wouldn’t care if he didn’t touch them.
DrM and Bikhair,
I doubt very much spencred and old pickler are European or western at all. Beware those that try to create hostility between Christians and Muslims by passing themselves off as christians/westerns/ex-muslims, anything, but their real identity.
A winter’s night traveller.
DrM,
I’ll be brief I have to get to work. From my two posts what could you find that would make the Fuhrer proud? Yes I refer to Islam as a death cult, mainly due to the actions of certain Muslims. If I was a closet nazi I don’t believe I would be the least upset how non-muslim minorities are treated in the Dar al-Islam. Moreover, if I was a rabid racist I don’t think I would be married to a Pakistani women. Its just something most facists don’t do. My dislike of Islam has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with culture. Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhist’s Christians and yes even the odd Parsi do not plot and carry out mass murder against their host communities in the West. Unfortunately, Muslims have that market cornered. In regards to the Jewish community well they behave themselves and contribute greatly to the culture of their respective countries. Moreover, their rabbis don’t feel antipithy towards the west and don’t incite their young to violence.
Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhist’s Christians and yes even the odd Parsi do not plot and carry out mass murder against their host communities in the West.
Hindus on the other hand plot the mass murder of Muslims in one of their own countries (Gujarat), while Sikhs have been known to board trains, have everyone lie on the floor, and shoot them all, and Christians have been known to shoot people in bars and kidnap mothers of six and kill them for “betraying” their so-called struggle. Your argument, and youself, are full of crap. You will not post here again.
Winter’s night traveller - what an extraordinary thing to say.
Mariah - you make some reasonable points. However, where are we in the West expected to draw the line? More than any other religion, Muslims make demand after demand and the tolerance is purely one way.
DrM perhaps in you colourful nicknaming you could move on from the toilet. There’s a queue, you know! Regarding your post about rabbis and Orthodox Jews, point taken. However, if they are that strict it would be extremely unlikely that they would be applying for a job in my office. They are also very small in number. It is amusing to hear you sticking up for their rights, though. Long may this continue.
OP wrote: “However, where are we in the West expected to draw the line?”
Why should any line be drawn in the first place? Is it such a problem for the West to accept Islam and Muslims as we are?
“More than any other religion, Muslims make demand after demand…”
Oh, such heavy demands we make: That our women be able to cover themselves to please Allah (swt), that men and women not shake hands of our own volition, that we be able to pray when we need to, and so on. Yes, we’re so taxing on the average Westerner’s psyche. (Rolls eyes.)
“…and the tolerance is purely one way.”
Oh, the horror. God forbid that Muslims should live their life as Islam dictates, to the consternation of the non-Muslim majority. See this tiny violin in my hand…?
Why should any line be drawn in the first place? Is it such a problem for the West to accept Islam and Muslims as we are?
Depends how you are. Of course a line must be drawn. Aspects of sharia law such as polygamy, child marriage, stoning, women as witnesses and so forth are among the many areas where the West must draw the line.
Britain, Holland, all Western countries are extremely tolerant. It is Muslim countries that are not.
Bikhair here,
“From my two posts what could you find that would make the Fuhrer proud?”
Well you did make some comments about how genocidal you become at Muslims. That was rather inappropriate.
“Yes I refer to Islam as a death cult, mainly due to the actions of certain Muslims.”
Perhaps then you should refer to Muslims as a death cult and not Islam. Muslims dont set precedence in the Sharia. The Sharia sets the precedence for them. To the extent that they act according to it, you would need to speak to a qaulified scholar on such issues. I have a few names I can throw out there, would you like them?
Spencred,
“In regards to the Jewish community well they behave themselves and contribute greatly to the culture of their respective countries.”
Ok, so you problems with Muslims arent the practice of not mixing with the non-mahram, but thier productivity? You know you should be more consistent with your arguments, because it would seem that your problems are with Muslims regardless of how productive or non productive they were.
“Moreover, their rabbis don’t feel antipithy towards the west and don’t incite their young to violence.”
Not all Muslims incite thier young to violence. You ought to direct your genocidal feelings towards those that do and not make all guilty for the actions of some, most, or many. Do you have a sense of justice? Also there are some aspects of Western culture that should be reject, even some Westerners reject it, and I am sure that if you had a heart to heart with a rabbi, maybe not kabalah style rabbi, he/she may even voice an aversion towards some aspect of Western culture.
Well prickler, I’m treating exactly as you should be treated, like the inconsistent racist hypocrite that you are. Who the heck would want to work for flotscam like you anyway? What are you, the secretary of employment? Keep your aryan bowel movements where they belong, in the toilet, thank you very much.
Child marriage… there are some places in the world where girls get married young, and those are typically places where there’s no access to education, so there’s no reason for a girl to wait after she’s reached puberty. It’s not really tied to Islam.
But why is it such a bad thing for a girl to be married, while it’s perfectly acceptable for a girl the same age to be sexually active, in which case she’s often being abused or at least used, and not supported in the ways he would be if she were actually married to one man. What are the statistics on unmarried teenaged girls having babies in the UK? They’re pretty high… And they get support from the government (I should say taxpayer), don’t they? Usually they aren’t able to continue their education and achieve what they might have if they didn’t have babies, and single parenthood is often very stressful. Why is that not a problem for you, Old Pickler?
Ann….I think “old prickler” and “spenturd” are really those two losers fecalstein and kitty litter usinf new names, the stench is unmistakable.
Oh, and I forgot, Old Pickler… just a couple of days ago, I was reading about Britain’s network of child drug runners
Gee, if I didn’t know any better, I might think that YOUR country is quite a “hellhole” for children, Old Pickler.
OP: Winter’s night traveller - what an extraordinary thing to say.
My point exactly OP. Why donât you just tell us who you really are instead of hiding behind that statement? To people like yourself OP, and your bigot friend and hero, Nick Cohen, this is what I have to say: You try desperately hard to confound the truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth. But in the words of the late Bob Marley, … You can fool some people sometimes, but you can’t fool all the people all the time.
I have been following your posts on this blog for a while Old Pickler and must say I find your desperate attempts at demonising and alienating Western Muslims, extremely tiresome -our western culture this, our western culture that. And exactly what are they Old Pickler? Is it French or British culture you speak of? Perhaps American? Dutch? For Your Info, WE are Muslim and Western both at the same time, not one and then the other, no debate about it. As British Muslims, British values are our values too. And if you are bothered that we do not share in your enthusiasm for yob culture and teen pregnancies, then Iâm sorry my friend but I pray that we never do. We are a morally conservative family oriented people and make no apologies for it. And no sane Brit (and by this I mean someone whose loyalties are actually to Britain rather than Israel) will ever criticise us for not allowing our youth to get drunk on Friday nights and then trush our town centres, or for not contributing to one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the developed world.
Yes we demand equal rights, but we do so as Western Muslims and full citizens of the countries we live in, these are our only countries; unlike you, who will be provided with your own little army to evict poor Palestinians from their little patch of land in the West Bank and round the clock armed security thereafter. We donât actually have another place to go to. So get over it. The West is our home, we contribute fully, we pay taxes. We feel positive about belonging here.
Wrt the âwesternâ values of freedom and liberty that you so often bleat about, well, Iâm feeling generous this morning my friend; so in the hope that you may learn something, although I very much doubt that you will, have this very short introduction to the origins and history of human rights for you:
No complusion is there in religion. Rectitude is clear from error. (Q2.256)
In late antiquity, there was horrific Christian intolerance; then came Islam, and one of the first things it did was announce this great principle of âno compulsionâ. Freedom of belief is fundamental to human rights, and it was Islam that first proclaimed this value. [Will be happy to provide you with further reference if interested].
So, if like most people in this world, you too believe that freedom of belief is fundamental to human rights, then surely you will see that the Dutch persecution of Muslim women is a crime against the most fundamental of human rights? And please donât come back with more nonsense about their dress being cultural and nothing to do with their belief.
Ann, I couldn’t agree with you any more- on your point about under age sexual exploitation of young girls in so called “advanced” societies such as Britain. Old Pickler seems to have a problem with girls being afforded protection and rights in the sanctity of marriage, -but when young girls start to sleep around with multiple partners outside marriage its OK? - and the consequences such as single parents, spread of STI’s, dependency on handouts etc must also be acceptable to Old Pickler as well.Ahh Utopia!!
Old Pickler also said a line must be drawn with polygamy and stoning. Well take a look at America’s record on capital punishment- which is notorious for frying the mentally insane, the young and people with coloured faces. And the reason why divorce rates are so high in the west is because adultery goes unpunished.
Don’t get me wrong Old Pickler, I was born and raised in the west, and just because i’m a muslim doesn’t mean i don’t have a right to criticise aspects of life in the country i live in.
Old Pickler said: “If Muslims want to be part of the West they should fit in. Or leave”
Leave and go where. I was born in the UK, it’s where i call home, i pay my taxes here, i know no other country. Where are you proposing to send me?
Does your rule apply to all citizans in the west who don’t agree with their government or don’t like what’s happening to their country- or does it just apply to muslims.
I’m sure you could do better than that. You resort to your childish remarks, of telling muslims to leave, whenever you can’t sustain an argument.
Does your rule apply to all citizans in the west who don’t agree with their government or don’t like what’s happening to their country- or does it just apply to muslims.
All citizens, of course. And find a country that suits them better. This is not just about Muslims at all. If I wanted more sunshine, for example, and this was really important to me, I wouldn’t stay in Britain.
There are many things about this government that I don’t like, but so far they are not sufficient to drive me out.
Winter’s night - I’m still puzzled by your comment ‘Why don’t you say who you really are?’. I don’t choose to give my full name on a blog, but presumably you are not really called ‘A winter’s night’, any more than I’m called ‘Old Pickler’??
Dear Yusef,
Are you going to let me comment or not? I really enjoy your site and kind of feel put off that my comments are being blocked because you and some of your brothers don’t see eye-to-eye with me on some issues. It beggers belief but I have a sneaking feeling that my apostasy from Islam maybe has a small part to do with it.
Yusuf responds: I did consider posting your last comment after inserting my answers to the various accusations you wrote in it, but then decided that it wasn’t worth the bother and deleted it. The reason being that there are plenty of places where people might read the tired old ideas you expressed in that comment, and this need not be one of them. It’s not a question of seeing eye to eye, but of speaking the truth.
My email is at [deleted],send me a message if your going to let me recommence posting. At the very least you could direct some of your traffic over to Jihad or Dhimmi Watch, I sometimes feel that Hugh is preaching to the choir.
Yusuf responds: I doubt anyone here will bother trying to comment there as it is full of morons who go there to insult Islam. People don’t want to see their religion continually insulted. If people thought there was anything to be gained by posting there, they’d do so.
spencerd,
I smiled when I read that you left Islam years back?. You seem to say it with a ‘chip’ as well; like an achievement that puts you above “others”?
Well, I am really sorry to burst your bubble here. Because, in reality no one actually ever gets to leave Islam.. “The death cult” ;) rather Islam isolates those who do not matter to “It’s God” (to honour subjectivity as a principle!), Allah. If they mattered to Him and His Prophets (aleihim salam), He would have guided them.
Spiritually, Islam is not something you can embrace or apostasize, rather the Islamic Truth seeks out the receptive heart and latches unto it - dwells within in; on the other hand it expunges the not-so-receptive heart and veils it aside from temporal and Eternal Truths. A state which whoever finds himself ought to wail unceasingly.
May Allah keep our foot firm on the path, “wa lau kariha al-kafiron”. Amin.
I hope this doesn’t sound too insulting, I thought it would be useful for you to know that muslims view someone who has left Islam with pity. If you put forward your arguments without given such background info, you may get more people to listen to you.
Winter’s night - I’m still puzzled by your comment ‘Why don’t you say who you really are?’. I don’t choose to give my full name on a blog
Old Pickler,
My meaning is clear in my post. And you know it’s not about your name.
Is that all you could find to say my post? That I am asking you to give your name?!!
winter’s night traveller - I’ve tried to respond to other aspects of your post, but my comments have either not been allowed, or have been lost in cyberspace. And I think you should spell out what you mean.
Old pickler,
Isn’t it too easy to find out who we all are.. inspite of nickames such as mine.
Anonymous,
Actually, I don’t feel chippy about it at all, When I did leave Islam I felt free and ‘born again’ although not in an evangelical way, I’m now a ‘smells and bells Catholic’. My biggest regret for converting is the years wasted and the profound shame for falling for Islam. I don’t blame anyone for selling me a bill of good’s, it could be argued that the majority of Muslims involved in prosletizeing are not familiar the historical Muhammad or the messy details of the Jihads since the 7th century. And I pity them, they just don’t know any better. In hindsight, I should have researched Islam more deeply and I’m confident that I would have found what I was looking for in the faith of my ancestors.
One positive aspect of my conversion is that I met a wonderful Muslim women in University who I ended up marrying, we have three children and I am very happy. Even more happy that my apostacy has not caused her to divorse me, and that she is willing to look at Catholicism and allow me to bring up our kids in the Church. The Ken Bigley beheading video and some sahih bukari english translations were the clincher on that one. And she is the daughter of an Maulana to boot. So please don’t feel pity for me.
I’m confused you state that one can’t apostasize from Islam then why does sharia demand the death one one who exactly does that?
As for insulted, I couldn’t find one insult in your post that raised my hackles
What a load of nonsense spenturd has to offer. So typical of right wing Euro-nutters. Did you show your wife those Abu Gharib torture pics as well, along with the Bigley beheading? Cant wait till she reads the King James version of the Bible! I can honestly say, that you are a veritable hypocrite of the highest order. Assuming you’re telling the truth, I certainly hope your wife leaves kicks you to the curb.
spencerd, Some interesting contradictions in the second paragraph of the arse dribble you just posted.
In the most gruff, condescending cockney tone I can muster: ‘course you did sweetheaaaaaaart!
Spencred,
Does your god offer religious freedom? If so why does he even exist?
Spencred,
If you were ever a Muslim or been anywhere near Islam then I am the offspring of Mother Teresa and was once a devout Catholic.
Your effors at deception and misinformation are quite laughable.
Tip of the day for you: Little knowledge is dangerous.
spencerd, You mentioned that: …Muslims involved in prosletizeing are not familiar the historical Muhammad or the messy details of the Jihads since the 7th century. And I pity them, they just don’t know any better..
This is interesting because what you are saying is that you know more about Islam than the scholars of Islam; this is absurd since now that we have many scholars who embraced Islam after having researched it and infact written about all the “messy jihads”. Interesting you talk about “messy jihads” being a Christian/Catholic, an adherent of a religion that in its orthodox teaching does not recognise the face of any other religion on the face of the earth. Amazing, that you find fault in the abode of peace -Islam!
I have read few things from you on your website, and I am not convinced you know much about Islam. I feel that the outward political exploitations of Islam does corner your analysis sometimes alongside with artificial emotions.
And as for your reservations about the Jihadi Prophet (sallallahu ‘aleihi wasalam); no doubt the beloved Prophet (sallallahu ‘alehi wasalam ) was a commander in chief, a magnificent one at that, but he was also a statesman, a father, a husband, a companion, a friend, a helper, a mercy, a light, a mystery and most importantly The Messenger of God: Now, there are two ways to read a man’s story, you can either read it with suspicion, or you could read it with inquisitiveness (at least).
I think that your readings of the Islamic text and the Prophetic history is far off from its true message. You may disagree, but there is absolutely no doubt that your understanding of them is off target. I wish I could sit down with you to discuss some of your numerous and frankly ridiculous mistakes. By the way, I am not interested in re-converting you. However I could feel your enthusiasm in wanting to explain some of the “bad” side of Islam, and your confidence in doing so…and it would just be interesting to see how you react when presented with what Muslims believe according to authentic traditional interpretation. Mind you, Islam is not an apologetic religion, and the kind of traditional analysis I am suggesting you familiarise yourself with won’t be apologetic, but rather factual and contextual. As you probably know, the Koran is one of the most unapologetic book you can ever read, cause Allah is not afraid of anyone. He tells you things as they are. What do you expect from God?
You talk about the beheading of Ken Bigley: a truly criminal, horrific and UNISLAMIC event.
But correct me if I am wrong - you seem to be averse to the “beheading” itself as opposed to the fact the he was actually killed? That’s interesting!
Would it make any difference if they had killed him with a machine gun or a more sophisticated and enlightened weapon such as explosives, or a gunship… and perhaps kill him out of sight?
These are some of “your” errors, and it is an often made error by most people. The barbarism or inhumane-ness entailed in killing a human being with a gun does not seem to worry many people as much as that of beheading? The modern man at his best!
Interestingly, with a sword, his windpipe would have probably broken rather quickly and would he would been deprived of oxygen supply to the brain, death comes within seconds. But with your enlightened and sophisticated weapon, there’s will be no predictable time of death for Ken Bigley…it all depends.
Interestingly you mentioned the following: In hindsight, I should have researched Islam more deeply and I’m confident that I would have found what I was looking for in the faith of my ancestors.
Yes, this is what you should have done. This is what the Koran commands you to do. “O People of the book, you have nothing to stand upon until you uphold your own teachings.”
Only when you hit a rock doing that, …you should consult Islam. Otherwise if you go too early without a “thirst”, you won’t be able to drink the teachings of Islam…because your cup is already full. You always need some thirst and an intention.
“…Whoever’s intention is for a woman to marry her, he will get what he intends”.
And you’ve surely got that!
His words (sallallahu aleihi wa salam) was fully realized on you.
If you were ever a Muslim or been anywhere near Islam then I am the offspring of Mother Teresa and was once a devout Catholic.
I smelled a rat as well, when he said his wife was the daughter of a “maulana” and that she allowed herself to remain married to him and to let him raise their kids Catholic. Likely story … not.
I think it was spencerd’s futile attempt to provoke an angry reaction by claiming that he married a muslim woman and that now she is willing to look at Catholicism and allow the kids to be brought in the church. Why don’t you go the whole hog with your fantasy story and claim that you once read salah five times a day, you went hajj/umrah and that you used to pay double zakat of 5%,- how pious. You could have really got to us by claiming that your wife and kids now enjoy eating pork, and that they can’t get enough of it.
How pathetic!
So much for tolerance and respect for People of the Book.
Imran,
Don’t forget she wasn’t just a Muslim woman, she was also the daughter of a “Maulana”.
LOL…
It’s also sympathetic!
For some reason, I thought this spencer guy was the same as the infamous Robert Spencer. Is the fast taking its toll on me?
Yusef, as a former Christian why do you find it so hard that someone might become fed up with Islam and part ways with it? My ‘rediscovery’ of Christianity came not surprisingly with the re-reading of the New Testment but from perusing some of the greatest writers in the English language: C.S. Lewis, Hilaire Belloc, C.K. Chesterton, Malcomlm Muggeridge and of course J.R.R. Tolkien. Contempory Muslim scholars like Tariq Ramadan, Syed Qutub, Maudoodi and others just didn’t measure up, and I was intellectually starved.
In many ways you remind me of myself in my early days as a Muslim: extremely brittle, chippy and intolerant.(I was also quite left wing, a Guardian and New Statesmen reader and a rabib hater of Israel, a profile shared by many converts.) I’m guessing that like most converts you drive many of your non-muslim friends quite mad. But, I’m just speculating, and please no offence.
If you must know my wife was quite torn, but not suprised when I confessed to her my apostacy, and she did think of leaving me. Presently she describes herself as a cultural Muslim and most of her friends are still desi. I am looking for a South Asian church hoping that this will ease her journey into Christianity. My father-in-law, a man who I love and respect, doesn’t have the foggiest and we plan to keep it that way. Anyway, the Tabliq Jamat takes up most of his time and we live four hours away, so I don’t foresee any problems on that front. Yes it might be circumspect and dishonest, but we both know that their are serious repercussions for Apostates even in the West.
Imran, Actually, for a period of four years I did do my Namaz five times a day. No I didn’t do hajj/umrah but did pay my 2.5% Zakat. I occasionally enjoy pork(mainly ribs) but my wife will not touch the stuff and doesn’t allow me to bring the stuff (or alcohol) into our home.
DrM, Why the vitriol? As a Catholic I can’t fathom why I would be reading the King James version of the bible. I have a canny feeling you have been listening to too many Ahmed Deedat(RIP) videos.
Whatever transpired in Abu Gharib was a lot more humane that happened to Bigley et al. Gentlemen, we also have to remember that the majority of the inmates in that prison are not there for traffic violations. Morever, I don’t think any of you guys got hot under the coller when the place was under Saddam’s management.
Anonymous, How many new Musims have written on the history of Jihad? Frankly I don’t know any, and if they are its all apologetics and published by dubious houses. Moreover, are they scholarly as the works from Bat Yeor or Fred Donner?
“I have read few things from you on your website, and I am not convinced you know much about Islam. I feel that the outward political exploitations of Islam does corner your analysis sometimes alongside with artificial emotions.”
What website are we talking about? The rest of your post is full of non-sequiturs. I personally would rather be shot with a nice STEEL JACKETED 7.62 than have my head sawed off with a meat cleaver. But that’s a cultural choice and I guess I’m just being eurocentric. As for your accertion that beheading is a more humane way of killing please google Orgish.com and view some of the videos of the mujahideen hacking the heads off engineers, election workers and the odd hapless cop. Come back and tell me that this is a quick way to go.
Winter’s night traveller, you are obsessed with people pretending to be what they are not. SpencerD seems very sincere to me - I have seen his posts at jihadwatch, where I also post under the name of ‘Interested’. Perhaps you do not approve of his apostasy, as you would term it. That is your right as a Muslim. But you know nothing about him, or me, whom you have also accused of pretending to be something other than what I am.
Maybe you are not a winter night’s traveller, but a midsummer night’s dream?
Spencred.
“Contempory Muslim scholars like Tariq Ramadan, Syed Qutub, Maudoodi and others just didn’t measure up, and I was intellectually starved.”
I wouldnt call those guys scholars. Theya re easily refuteable and deviant. If you want to read a real scholar read Ibn Tamiyah. That guy was a super genious. He also wrote polemics against christianity which I am sure are very interesting.
Spencerd said: “My ‘rediscovery’ of Christianity came not surprisingly with the re-reading of the New Testment but from perusing some of the greatest writers in the English language: C.S. Lewis, Hilaire Belloc, C.K. Chesterton, Malcomlm Muggeridge and of course J.R.R. Tolkien”
J.R.R. Tolkien, the writer of the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit—ummm- this must explain your imaginativeness and fantasy stories. Keep it up, i’m almost convinced!
jihadwatch? Ahhhh no wonder, we’re dealing with genuine christo-fascists here. The armadeonnist death cult has arrived. The fake outrage at Bigley’s beheading along cheerleading the torture and murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi’s is highly instructive of this terrorist mindset.
spenderd,
You didn’t leave Islam. Islam left you. You got your wife, cos that’s what you intended.
Good luck with your Christianity.
Brownwonder
Ibn Taymiyah the 13th century scholar and intellectual forerunner of the modern Salafis and everthing that is wrong with contemporary Islam would probably feel very much at home with the likes of Syed Qutub, Maudoodi.
I am so worried now knowing that western Muslims are reading and liking Ibn Taymiyah. There is no hope, I have a sinking feeling that my ancestors might be paying the jizra and hearing the adan from Westminister.
Dr. M
Brother you crack me up. You are so unreal sometimes.
Asalaamualaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu.
spenderd,
ON JIZYA:
It is called jizya and not “jizra” :), this is the tax payed by non-muslims living under an Islamic Caliphate, whilst the Muslims pay an obligatory Zakat (which is to be distributed amongst the poor or sometimes for other purposes). Non-muslims don’t pay Zakat by the way.
ON INTENTION:
Perhaps you didn’t catch some of my allusions in earlier post. You didn’t even respond to a lot of my points.
I thought you said you used to be a muslim? How come you don’t know the hadith of intention that I was alluding to. The first thing every muslim learns.
That: “Verily actions are by intentions, and for every man is what he intends. Whomsoever his journeying is to God and His Messenger, then his journeying will be to God and His Messenger. And whomsoever his journeying is to the world, or to a woman to marry her, surely his reward will be to what he hath journeyed”.
How true in your case: because you said that your wife was the main tipping point for your entering into Islam. Can you elaborate on this? Anyway, it seems you finally got her full squared and you “lost” your Islam (which seen to have never been there).
ON YOUR APOSTASY:
You talk about threat towards apostasy. That is rubbish, don’t worry about that. Any muslim with a brain cell will not bother you, we do not live in an Islamic Caliphate, neither in the West nor in the East. Ignorance/corruption has become too interpenetrative in both worlds anyway - that to try anyone for apostasy would be a travesty of Islamic apostasy laws, except perhaps where there are strategic/security implications for the muslims or their religion.
RELIGION OF YOUR ANCESTORS:
I honestly think you should focus all your attention on the “religion of your ancestors” and take stock in say another year’s time to see how far you have ascended in your journey to God. If you feel much happier, then stick to it. I think nothing should matter to you than you own happiness.
However, if you feel as miserable as ever, you may need to start looking else where. Perhaps, Islam again? It is normal for some people to go round and round in circles like that. Especially people without a firm ambition or intention - and so they are unable to get to the bottom of any matter before doing away with it.
It reminds me of the parable given by Imam Al-Ghazali -… of someone who is trying to reach water under the ground. He digs a bit here, digs a bit there, digs a bit here, digs another bit there… He will never reach water, but would only have lots of sands at his disposal.
ON THE JIHADI PROPHET:
As for your points about the “jihadi” nature of the Prophet (peace be upon him), what exactly are you referring to? Please give some examples (of course we know the examples you have in mind) - the execution of the Jewish plotters?. The raiding of the caravan of criminals that have persecuted and stolen from muslims when they were weak?
I am not sure there is any example you can find to fault the Beloved Prophet (peace be upon him), or any Prophet for that matter. I know that in the “religion of your ancestors”, they are wont to charge the Prophets of faults such as those scattered in the bible - as in the fabrications that the likes of David (peace be upon him) were drunkards and lying with their daughters. These are the fancies of the authors of that book.
As muslims, Prophets are divinely protected and far from our odious suspicious which is just a reflection of our own rot. This is an article of faith, whoever finds it believeable should thank Allah, and whoever finds otherwise should blame no one but himself
ON THE BAD SIDE OF ISLAM:
It is widely said that muslims should accept that there are some bad departments in their religion. No, there’s no blemish in this Beautiful deen of Islam, the blemish can only be on the heart of those who see it otherwise. You may find lots of faults amongst muslims, that is hardly surprising - cos it because of these faults that they are muslims (not vice versa). But, sorry, you won’t find any fault with Islam or it’s Prophets (peace be upon them).
If you have any in mind, please produce a list.
YOU ARE WELCOME HERE:
You have the rather honourable company of Old pickler and some other contributors to this blog to support your line of arguments, so please feel welcome here. And also I am sure you old “brothers” and “sisters” here will try to answer your questions wherever they can.
Sorry for the long post and any typos
THE END ——-:)