On the way to an early job on Friday, I always look forward to what’s going to be on the front of the political magazines, the New Statesman and the Spectator, associated with the left and right respectively. I’d sort of forgotten that last time there was any big trouble involving Muslims in Europe (the 7th July bombings in London), authentic voices from our community could not be found in either, and the same pattern is repeated now that the dust has started to settle over the riots in France. The NS leads with a front page feature by John Pilger about Hugo Chávez, but inside there’s a page by Zia Sardar on Hizb-ut-Tahrir (why this week?) and its “fascism for escapists”. The Spectator, on the other hand, gives no voice to any Muslims at all, preferring the usual right-wing Islamophobes: Charles Moore, Rod Liddle, Mark Stein and, of course, Patrick Sookhdeo. (More: Clive Davis, Magic Statistics.)
Sookhdeo’s article, Will London Burn Too? (free registration required) has as its theme “the Islamic doctrine of sacred space”. It’s the sort of paranoid conspiracy nonsense which would have its author out of the door of any publication of left or right if Jews were its target (the Muslims have yet to demand anything like the eruv scheme in London, for example); its first paragraph contains the assertion that “have become perhaps the most dominant group in British society”:
Divided along ethnic and sectarian lines, Muslims are nevertheless united by their creed, their law and the powerful concept of the umma, the totality of Muslims worldwide.
The same can be said of Jews in this country, many of whom make no secret of their loyalty to an actually existing, rather than defunct, foreign state (Israel). They also have a religious law and a concept of their religious group as a nation. In the case of Muslims, the concept of the umma manifests itself mainly in charitable donations (although much of this goes back to the “home country” rather than to needy Muslims generally).
Sookhdeo’s assessment of hijra as “the process of migrating and establishing a Muslim community in a non-Muslim context” is inaccurate. Hijra is migration, full stop. The model of migration from Muslim countries to the west for economic reasons cannot be compared to the hijra of the Companions to Abyssinia (specifically Tigray; the town in which they settled is called Negash, and is still standing) or the migration of the Prophet (sall’ Allahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) and his Companions to Madinah because the Abyssinian migration took place before much of the Shari’ah had been revealed, and because we are not in a position of rulership and did not expect to be. The Muslims did not “seize political and military power”; rather, they were invited, by local tribes who wished to put aside long-standing disputes.
Sookhdeo invokes “Muslim writer Amir Taheri” to make the demonstrably false assertion that “Franceâs policy of assimilation began to fail when (Muslim) immigrants grouped themselves in concentrated areas”. In fact, the well-known historical fact is that the areas concerned were built specifically for foreign immigrants, most of whom came from French-speaking parts of north and west Africa where Islam is dominant. “Some” are said to be calling for the establishment of an Ottoman-style millet in these areas, by which they “organise their own social, cultural and educational life in accordance with their religious beliefs”. As we will see later, “some” can be a very small number of people when the term is used by Sookhdeo. The evidence of an existing “de facto millet system” is supposedly found in “Islamic beards, Islamic headscarves, Islamic control of the administration” (how did that come about in a democracy, I wonder?) “and the elimination of cinemas, dance halls, and shops selling alcohol and pork”. You’d wonder who’d buy alcohol and pork in a Muslim-dominated area.
Then, onto another shoddy sweeping bald assertion:
Muslims in France have by and large rejected the concept of the integration of individuals and are working instead for the integration of communities. The same is happening in the UK, where the concept of multiculturalism has long been popular.
As if the French care much for their integration? It’s already been discussed at such length elsewhere that you wonder what authority Sookhdeo has to comment given that he’s obviously not been listening. You can’t integrate with anyone who will not give you a job on the level appropriate for your education and skills. Using pliant imams to “moderate” the community is not quite the same thing. In this country, the places where disturbances have taken place are those where the “French model” of permitting neglected and isolated communities to emerge is in evidence. In many places with a substantial Muslim population, including London, there have been no riots.
Sookhdeo then claims that “two other Islamic principles”, namely “sacred space” and the “dar al-Islam / dar al-harb” distinction, “are important subjects of debate among contemporary Muslims”. I would argue that they actually aren’t. The “sacred space” issue has no relevance here given that no part of the UK has ever been conquered and settled by the Muslim army. Furthermore, once the Muslims are removed and all vestiges of an Islamic presence are removed, a place is no longer “dar al-Islam”. The only real “sacred space” is that of mosques, which are mosques in perpetuity and Muslims cannot use them for any other purpose. And now for another bizarre and stupid claim:
Migrant Muslim communities in the West are constantly engaged in sacralising new areas â first the inner private spaces of their homes and mosques, and latterly whole neighbourhoods (e.g., Birmingham) by means of marches and processions. So the ultimate end of sacred space theology is autonomy for Muslims of the UK under Islamic law.
Whole neighbourhoods, like Birmingham? Birmingham is a big city, not a “neighbourhood”. Does the Spectator care nothing for a reputation, printing something so out of whack with reality? Marches do not “sacralise” an area, anyway. They are are a cultural tradition in some communities, particularly for Mawlid, which is an innovated festival and therefore there is no requirement on the community to hold it, but is has nothing to do with establishing a legal “sacred space”. Similarly, the discussion about “dar al-Islam” holds no great relevance in this debate. The UK is not a Muslim country and never has been; Muslims, like others, are either equal citizens or immigrants. The only way Muslims can gain control in the present circumstances is by persuading the citizenry to elect them. As for the possibility of a “North Sea Caliphate”, try Googling the phrase. (At the time of writing, it returned not a single hit.)
Similarly, for most Muslims the “covenant of security” Sookhdeo’s “radicals” once felt themselves bound by still applies. Al-Muhajiroun was tiny as are its successor groups; Hassan Butt, who as I understand no longer lives in the UK, is a more-or-less unknown figure. With or without a covenant of security, most Muslims have neither the inclination to engage in violence in this country, nor is there the provocation, as there was in France (and as there has been to other communities here in the past), because right now, Muslims are not being persecuted in any way in this country. In other democratic countries, Muslims have faced organised pogroms where they are raped and/or murdered and their properties destroyed by mobs while the police look the other way. In short, if Muslims feel secure here, the wider community should have no reason to feel otherwise because of us.
“In Britain”, he alleges, “we already have many examples of Muslim violence,” citing “honour killings” and trouble between Kurds and Pakistanis in Peterborough. A search for any stories which might refer to such brought up an incident at the Anand Mela in 2002 involving ninety people, all described as Pakistani and Iraqi youths, “exchanging blows and hurling chairs”. It wasn’t so bad that Jayshree Mehta, the organiser, couldn’t call it “a lovely day”. (There is another article about the phenomenon by Burhan Wazir in the Times here, which discusses the general phenomenon of inter-ethnic violence between immigrant groups; it doesn’t just affect Muslim immigrants and Muslims aren’t always to blame.) “Honour killings” are by no means confined to our community, and aren’t relevant to an article on riots anyway. As for black versus Asian violence in Birmingham, again, its immediate causes are well-known (rumours of rape spread on black pirate radio stations), and the so-called black Muslims in south London are not really Muslims anyway. They are gangsters who use Islam as a gang badge.
“Most alarming of all is the prospect of Muslim secessionist violence in the UK as in Kosovo, the Philippines, Thailand and elsewhere (Huntingtonâs much-reviled âbloody borders of Islamâ)”, he suggests. Again, ludicrous. You can’t “secede” if you don’t already have a designated area. In the case of the Phillipines and Thailand, the areas concerned are Muslim-majority areas of a different ethnicity and language adjacent to another Muslim country: Malaysia. In fact, Thailand formerly occupied at least two states of what is today the Malay peninsula. Sookhdeo might ponder why similar violence has not appeared in other areas of Thailand with a substantial Muslim population, such as Phuket (where mosques outnumber Buddhist wats) and Chiang Mai. Kosovo has long been a predominantly Albanian region, which was incorporated into Serbia after World War II because including it in Albania would look funny on the map. And so much of this violence was the direct result of the breakdown of empires (such as the Hapsburg and Ottoman) and federations (Yugoslavia, the USSR) into ethnically-based states, which has often resulted in civil wars, mass migrations and expulsions (Germans from the Sudetenland and Silesia, for example) as well as the “maroonings” of settler populations in potentially hostile new countries (Slovakia, Romania). You can’t entirely relate it to Islam having “bloody borders”.
Sookhdeo mentions some bloke preaching in Hyde Park last Sunday and “calling for what happened in France to be repeated here”, with Muslims moving into Muslim areas, “after which any Churches would be expelled”. Hyde Park’s Speakers’ Corner is in my experience not very well-attended; I personally stopped going after finding that it had become dominated by hostile “debate” between Christian missionaries and Muslims. Being next to Edgware Road, it has a substantial Arab presence. I would estimate that the preacher Sookhdeo witnessed had an audience in the lower two figures, at least at any one time. Even so, as if it were relevant, he then moves on to the rising Muslim population figure in Bradford, in order to frighten his audience with the news that some dying mill towns might come under Muslim control when they become the majority of the population.
His assertion in the penultimate paragraph that there is a real possibility of “Islamic enclaves … defined by Islamic values, education, politics, religious practice and above all law” is as stupidly alarmist as everything else in his article. He may not have noticed, but very little of Islamic politics has ever made itself felt in actual mainstream politics; no candidate has ever been elected to Parliament on an Islamist platform anywhere in the UK. The community is overwhelmingly tied to mainstream parties, only managing to secure the election of different non-Muslims where their efforts made a serious difference in the 2005 election for example. And the presence of Shari’ah mediating councils do not constitute “an unofficial parallel legal system”, and so what if it does? It’s only the same as is found in other religious communities with laws, such as the Jewish community. One might wonder what Sookhdeo thinks of the Jewish concentrations in places like Finchley; perhaps the reason they don’t riot is because they are not marginalised and impoverished. Given that no “Israel on Thames” has established itself, it might cast doubt as to whether anyone should fear a “North Sea Caliphate” either.
Sookhdeo concludes thus:
Unless the multiculturalist policy â which has been indirectly facilitating the separatist agenda of radical Islamists â is reversed immediately, we shall wake up and find we have sleepwalked into a situation of apartheid and segregation. If we sleep long enough, we may even wake up to find that, like Paris, London is burning. Or that we are living in an Islamic state.
He conveniently ignores the fact that all the trouble which has occurred anywhere in Europe where Muslim communities exist can be traced to other factors besides Islam: poverty, police brutality, inter-communal hostility, possible commercial corruption, rumours. Not all of it has been Muslims’ fault, and in the case of Paris the religious factor has been played down by pretty much everyone except those who want to make something of it. If it had been significant, the rioters in France would not have been called rascals, but terrorists or something similar. Paris is not burning, anyway. Cars burned; buildings, for the most part, haven’t. And London is nothing like as segregated as Paris.
Perhaps I shouldn’t be, but I’m still shocked that a political magazine associated with a mainstream political party in the UK prints such shoddy, alarmist, hate-driven rubbish. And I’m not a Tory and never have been (I’m not sure if this shaytan is a Tory either, for that matter), but this sounds like it’s coming from somewhere far more extreme. The cover of the magazine is black, bearing the headline “Eurabian nightmare” with a red crescent extending across northern Europe with a big red star in eastern England, and many little stars on the various riot sites - including one where Nantes is marked Rennes. (Rennes is further north and inland.)
Also featured is Rod Liddle, who comes out with the equally stupid statement that “there are a string of towns and cities, from Rennes in the south” (west, actually) “through Lille, Brussels, Antwerp, Zeebrugge, Rotterdam, Bremen to Aarhus in Denmark in the far north, where the Muslim population approaches or exceeds 20 per cent (and in some cases constitutes a majority)”, which “drawn on a map … describe an almost perfect crescent across the North Sea seaboard of Europe”. The map on the cover exposes this lie for what it is, as the outline, even when you include Paris, resembles a trapezoid, not a crescent. I can’t be bothered to take apart Mark Stein’s rambling two-page piece.
If this is anything like typical of the Tory mentality, it’s no surprise that they are still in the wilderness. Perhaps they do in fact consider any future for the Tory party to lie in attacking Islam and Muslims as “Will Cummins” suggested in his notorious four-article diatribe last July, but they are banking on exploiting anti-Muslim sentiment that might result from future terrorist incidents. Given the profusion of centre-to-left magazines which exist and which can be picked up at any decent bookshop (New Statesman, Prospect, Red Pepper among those I can think of off the top of my head), the Spectator does a really bad job of representing Tories as anything other than uncivilised, dishonest bigots, which most aren’t. Perhaps it’s time for someone to start a magazine which might do the job better?
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The Spectator is as bad as any NBP publication. In fact, Rod Liddle does not seem to have any qualms at all supporting Nick Griffin on national TV(the sick documentary he did on channel 4 a while back).
Boris Johnson is the worst of cowards. A man who is ever so ready to trample on those he perceives as weak and powerless (e.g Liverpudlians) but is a complete arse licker when he thinks someone is powerful and could harm his job prospects and career -the way he sucks up to the neocons is toe curling to say the least. I find it hard to believe a man who once wore a Che Guevara wrist watch to a meeting with Bush is a natural bedfellow of the neocons, but there you go.
Yusef,
In light of the Spectator’s high sales one might deduce that it serves Tories quite well. Are you going to attack the Telegraph next for not being Islam-friendly enough? Do you really think people would come away thinking less highly of Islam than they do today if we airbrushed every Muslim outrage out of the news. I for one wished Will Cummings had a weekly article in that fine paper. Anna,
As someone who is of West Indian descent I could never support Nick Griffin, however, if he confined his criticisms to Muslims and Islam I think he would broaden his base of support. And in light of events over the last fortnight in France I can imagine we are going to see a surge in support for right-wing parties. Anna, us Kuffar are hearing about figures of a Musim majority in France in a couple of generations, we are rightly scared.
I believe the reason why Boris Johnson went after scousers was that he was getting sick at the mawkish display on his television 24/7 over the death of Kenneth Bigley(I recall he murdered by your co-religionists, although I forget the details maybe you can refresh my memory)
“But is a complete arse licker” Ahem, youâre quite the lady Anna.
Anna, us Kuffar are hearing about figures of a Musim majority in France in a couple of generations, we are rightly scared.
Well, you kuffar had better start having babies then, hadn’t you?
I quite like the Spectator certainly more than the New Statesman. However, the series of articles on Euroarabia were appalling. Not because they criticised Muslims or voiced fears of a Muslim dominance over Europe—I’m perfectly happy to engage with this view—but because they were inaccurate with shoddy journalism.
Rod Liddle had the lead piece. I can’t work out what his claim to expertise is. His article was about the French Riots. He wrote that he barely speaks French, that he spent a very short time in the French community, and yet we’re supposed to take him as an authority on the situation. Grrr.
I’m often astounded at how little non-Muslims, even academics who are pro-Muslim, know about what’s going on in Muslim communities yet still write about us with “authority”.
To whom it may concern,
I am a non-practicing Catholic, Not a Muslim, not that it should be any of your business.
“Well, you kuffar had better start having babies then, hadn’t you”
Or maybe adopt the Serb option.
Or maybe adopt the Serb option.
…or maybe Hitler’s? You BNP lot “west indian” are sick, but doesn’t everyone know that already.
Anna,
Actually no, I would never consider sending people to camps. Itâs funny though (in a sad way) how old Adolph and Holocaust denial are quite popular in some parts of the Muslim world and I heard that “Mein Kempt” sells like hotcakes in some quarters, and the Protocols Of the Elders of Zion has even been made into a television series in Egypt. Yet of course I am a fascist for having the temerity of not wanting the feral aspects of this civilization to be planted among us.
Yusef,
I just read Mr. Steyn’s excellent article in this weeks Speckie and for my benefit I really wish you would attempt to take it apart. Instead of using the old Marxist tactic of throwing mud and dismissing him out of hand, could you please refute his claims in regards to Muslim demographics and what it means to the land of the Gaulâs. Is he making these very scary numbers up? And if he isn’t are we natives supposed to dance around our maypoles in happy anticipation that the Adan might one day be yelled from the top of Notre Dame?
You may find this article by Randy McDonald useful:
France, its Muslims and its Future
Excellent set of articles in the Spectator.
‘Kuffr’ in France can’t afford as many babies because they are paying huge taxes to support Muslims who reproduce at their expense.
Aren’t the French taxpayer mainly having to support Muslims though because almost no French companies are willing to employ them?
George, even if this is true, whose fault is it? And isn’t it irresponsible to breed like a rabbit if you’re on the dole?
I see this is going to generate into a bun fight.
George,
If you were a business owner would you employ them? And they can always find honest work at Mecca Cola.
Assalaamu alaikum,
Actually, France offers financial incentives for parents to have more children. See France boosts family incentives.
“the Muslims have yet to demand anything like the eruv scheme in London”
I guess the key word there is ‘yet’….
Don’t like Jews much, do ya? I wonder why…..
The eruv scheme is limited in space and does not interfere with non-Jews. Muslims have demanded religious hatred legislation which interferes with freedom of speech, the ‘right’ of a schoolgirl to dress in a sack, an end to piggy toys, Muslim schools the ‘right’ not to look at underwear ads, and - 60% of them - sharia law.
“Muslims have demanded religious hatred legislation which interferes with freedom of speech,”
Doesn’t legislation against the insightment to anti-semitism also limit freedom of speech? I’ll at least admit that in practice it probably doesn’t as would be the case with the incitement to religious hatred bill. By the way I’m not particularly in favour of it.
“an end to piggy toys,”
One it was a book and two it wasn’t muslims who complained.
“Muslim schools”
Don’t jews have schools to?
spencerd wrote:
how old Adolph and Holocaust denial are quite popular in some parts of the Muslim world
No matter how desperate you get trying to project holocaust guilt onto the Muslim world, Muslims will never feel guilty for it for the simple reason they had nothing to do with it.
Your ancestors did it, and it would appear, you now think it’s your turn to do the same -with a different group of people of course. Nothing ever changes, evil is always amongst us…same old evil, different target.
Evil knows no race, colour, or faith, or at least chooses to focus on one race/faith at a time, and is ignorant of history too -that’s why you have Jews like Mark Steyn, Mellanie Phillips, Daniel Pipes, Nick Cohen, fecalstein and Old Pickler etc, salivating at the prospects of joining hands with the BNP to exterminate Muslims. But evil never wins.
Yep, Alun, you never have any religious persecution in an Islamic state. Erm…
Saudi jailed for discussing the Bible November 14, 2005
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) - A court sentenced a teacher to 40 months in prison and 750 lashes for “mocking religion” after he discussed the Bible and praised Jews, a Saudi newspaper reported yesterday.
Spencerd “Itâs funny though (in a sad way) how old Adolph and Holocaust denial are quite popular in some parts of the Muslim world”
Holocaust denial is a prevalent theme amongst far-right extremists like the BNP- the same rabid racists you want to see broaden their “base of support”. This coming from a person of West Indian descent.
Your arguments have the consistency of diarrhoea.
p.s. I hope your “muslim” wife had a good Eid- say Eid Mubarak to her from me.
Am I alone in thinking Spencerd has escaped from a lunatics asylum? either that or he has been neglecting to take his medication.
For starters, here is a person claiming to be of West Indian descent calling for the Serbian solution!
However little intellect a person may have, surely they’d know what that meant?
But then again, no one ever accused the BNP of having any brains.
Oy vey, I told you already, I’m not Jewish.
I have no desire whatsoever to exterminate Muslims. I just don’t like Islam.
“Oy vey, I told you already, I’m not Jewish.
I have no desire whatsoever to exterminate Muslims. I just don’t like Islam.”
I din’t say you were Jewish. I used the example because Jews are similar to muslims in many ways.
rod liddles mum is a bnp supporter/member.
why does it matter if france becomes muslim? if we are to look at the spanish experience , in historical terms it was an advancement , a progressive force of a nation. it brought civilisation to the european lands.
its very curious how we over inflate the crimes of muslims which automatically becaome crimes of islam , never do western crimes become christian or zionist crimes. why not?
up until iraq the number of deaths caused by terrorism was estimated (worldwide) 6000 , we as western nations have killed in iraq 128 000 (latest survey) and some 50 000 in afghanistan.
we use 21000 pound bombs, napalm derivatives, abuse as in abu ghraib, ignore geneva conventions as in guantanomo and outsource our torture to our allies such as egypt, jordan, poland, uzbekistan.
yet we are told by our news media that muslims and islam is the barbarian.
why are we in the west in denial with respect to our war crimes and atrocities?
honor killings : there are 104 deaths of women as a result of ‘domestic abuse’ in the uk, the police estimate that there are 10 deaths as a result of so called honor killings.
why do we call them honor killings and not crimes of passion or domestic violence, why do we choose to differentiate between white crimes against women and asian crimes. what purpose does it serve?
why dont we talk about domestic violence and the 104 women (minimum) that are murdered each year? why does our media choose to ignore our ‘honor’ killings?
Pickles,
Why don’t you like Islam?
So, what religion do you like? And what attracts you to it?
Just wondering.
spencerd,
Anna, us Kuffar are hearing about figures of a Musim majority in France in a couple of generations, we are rightly scared.
Poor thing, rather you should be scared of catastrophies such as the rise in teenage pregnancies, homosexuality, pornography, divorce rates, ecological issues, nuclear arms….
Too much television and little guidance can rearranged these priorities.
“Poor thing, rather you should be scared of catastrophes such as the rise in teenage pregnancies, homosexuality, pornography, divorce rates, ecological issues, nuclear arms….”
And we’re all to believe somehow Islam is an answer to all the above social ills.
Allun,
Cool down, I am not projecting any guilt on the Muslim world for the Holocaust. Moreover, considering that several of my relatives died fighting National Socialism they and I are certainly not responsible for the extermination of Europeâs Jews either. My point was (lost on you) that it shows the general collective looniness in large parts of the Muslim world when the denial of a well documented mass murder, is dismissed out of hand as Zionist conspiracy. Moreover it show the big difference (A chasm really) between your and my culture in that we are culturally confident enough to look squarely at our own bloody past and make amends whereas you are not. Remember the Left and the Muslim community took the mass atrocities of Saddam and the Taliban with equanimity, not to say indifference.
Traveller,
My family hails from St. Kitts and Antigua, some were part of the Windrush generation and settled in Britain, and they have prospered, England was good to them. My father chose Canada (to my everlasting chagrin, but Iâm glad he picked Montreal) Iâm curious why do you find it so hard to believe that? Me thinks is that you think all West Indians adopt P Diddy-stle âblingâ behavior. My call for a Serb solution was rhetorical; Iâll put that in quotes for your benefit next time. But in all seriousness if this violence in France spreads you can expect some of the more desperate natives to lash back. And please stop playing the race card this war with Islam has absolutely nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture. If there were five million Christian Arabs in France the suburbs would not be the hellish places they are today and they certainly wouldn’t be burning. If the Netherlands had confined its immigrants to Christians from the Spice Islands in Indonesia, or Surinam Mr. Van Goe would still be alive and many inner-city Dutch cities would not be such festering cess pools that they are today. If Britain had…ah forget it.
Wendy,
“Why does it matter if France becomes Muslim? If we are to look at the Spanish experience, in historical terms it was advancement, a progressive force of a nation. It brought civilization to the European lands.”
I really need the patience of a Buddhist Lama. Wendy I donât think you should have quit your ten-step program. To make such an patently ignorant statement like that tells me that you have not read anything serious about the history of Andalusia and the reconquest. Youâre just being silly and uttering an unfortunately popular Shibboleth. Do you really believe the feral youth who are burning down their own schools are the torchbearers of a superior civilization? Should the French taxpayer be the milch cow for these terror merchants? For goodness sake women these hooded chavs have the highest rape and criminal rates in France. What do these rabble-rousers have to teach us? Please donât quip Molotov cocktail manufacturing.
Assalaamu alaikum,
It’s interesting that there’s so much discussion about Islamic schools, as if they’re a problem. In yesterday’s International Herald Tribune, I noticed two articles next to each other. One said that after the newest revelations about sex abuse by priests, the Irish public is even going so far as calling for a weakening of the Catholic church’s control in schools (government-run schools, not private ones).
The other said that millions of Spanish citizens came out to protest the government’s suggestion that students (again, in government schools) be allowed to choose whether or not to take religion classes. The protesters don’t want people to be able to opt out of the religious education. (And the marks are factored into the grade point average, too.)
I was just surprised to find out how much influence the religious authorities in these coutries (and Greece, which we’ve discussed previously) had, since we’re led to believe that this is not the case in Europe.
Ted, Saudi Arabia considers itself a Muslim country and doesn’t allow public displays of worship for other religions. Everyone knows this. Non-Muslims can worship privately, and Saudi Aramco (a big oil company with many Western workers) does have Christian services with paid chaplains. In any case, Saudi Arabia is one country; it is not representative of all Muslim countries. (Sorry for sounding like a broken record - for those of you who are regular readers of this blog.)
I think the right to worship in private is not always respected by the benevolent Islamic state in question. Nor is it acceptable - I’m sure you would be the first to complain if the British Government decided public displays of, say, Islamic worship were forbidden.
Can you name a Muslim country that does have religious freedoms, Ann?
“Allun,
Cool down, I am not projecting any guilt on the Muslim world for the Holocaust. Moreover, considering that several of my relatives died fighting National Socialism they and I are certainly not responsible for the extermination of Europeâs Jews either. My point was (lost on you) that it shows the general collective looniness in large parts of the Muslim world when the denial of a well documented mass murder, is dismissed out of hand as Zionist conspiracy.”
Holocaust revisionism and anti-semitism whether its right or wrong is not the reserve of muslims alone. I think you’ll find that its widely accepted in many democracies like Russia and Ukraine. Areas which are strangely ignored by the “anti-semitism industry”.
“Moreover it show the big difference (A chasm really) between your and my culture in that we are culturally confident enough to look squarely at our own bloody past and make amends whereas you are not. Remember the Left and the Muslim community took the mass atrocities of Saddam and the Taliban with equanimity, not to say indifference.”
I’m not aware of any right wingers who highlighted the actions of Saddam or the Taliban. In fact most proponants of the war were people on the left like Christopher Hitchens. In fact Hitchens has pointed out that most conservative politicians in America didn’t truly want the war which he’s probably right about.
“My family hails from St. Kitts and Antigua, some were part of the Windrush generation and settled in Britain, and they have prospered, England was good to them. My father chose Canada (to my everlasting chagrin, but Iâm glad he picked Montreal) Iâm curious why do you find it so hard to believe that? Me thinks is that you think all West Indians adopt P Diddy-stle âblingâ behavior. My call for a Serb solution was rhetorical; Iâll put that in quotes for your benefit next time. But in all seriousness if this violence in France spreads you can expect some of the more desperate natives to lash back. And please stop playing the race card this war with Islam has absolutely nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture. If there were five million Christian Arabs in France the suburbs would not be the hellish places they are today and they certainly wouldn’t be burning. If the Netherlands had confined its immigrants to Christians from the Spice Islands in Indonesia, or Surinam Mr. Van Goe would still be alive and many inner-city Dutch cities would not be such festering cess pools that they are today. If Britain had…ah forget it.”
I find that statement almost impossible to consume. Black people (regardless of religion) are accussed of causing social problems all over the place much more so than arab muslims. I can’t believe you’d make that statement.
“For goodness sake women these hooded chavs have the highest rape and criminal rates in France.”
Again something that is often thrown at balck people.
“Again something that is often thrown at balck people.”
That was meant to say black people.
Ann
You keep on Salaming us; I thought you were a nonpracticing Catholic. Although it is none of my business, I hope you havenât made your Shahada.
Shamil
Most Afro-Caribbeanâs who are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime in Britain and in North America come from Jamaica, and in most cases a certain area of Kingston. I believe you guys across the pond call them yardies. However, most people from the Windward and Leeward islands have in most cases assimilated quite well into their host countries and have done quite well. Moreover, West Indian immigration to America is really an unknown success story, so successful in fact that there is widespread acrimony from native-born Afro-Americans towards West Indians.
“I find that statement almost impossible to consume. Black people (regardless of religion) are accused of causing social problems all over the place much more so than Arab Muslims. I can’t believe you’d make that statement.”
Well its the truth, in Toronto for instance blacks make up around 7% of the population, but over 70% of the murders last year were attributed to this small segment of the population. Economics has nothing to do with this; these people are not living in Dickensian poverty. I believe your adopting the logic that has driven Western social policy for so long: that any difference in economic and social outcome between groups is the result of social injustice and adverse discrimination. I donât even think the premises of multiculturalism even permits asking whether reasons internal to the groups themselves might account for differences in out-comes. Most of these thugs come from very unstable homes, are usually, literally speaking, bastards, who have no father figures to keep them in line.
Why don’t you like Islam?
Because Islam doesn’t like me.
So, what religion do you like? And what attracts you to it?
Christianity. It has a loving God.
“Shamil
Most Afro-Caribbeanâs who are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime in Britain and in North America come from Jamaica, and in most cases a certain area of Kingston. I believe you guys across the pond call them yardies.”
Yardies are a gang. Nobody refers to the whole afro-carribean community here as yardies. I was under the impression that most african americans are long settled in america and not recent immigrants from the carribean
“However, most people from the Windward and Leeward islands have in most cases assimilated quite well into their host countries and have done quite well.”
How is criminality a matter of non-assimilation? Most jews in Russia are well assimilated but they still make up a large part of the Russian mafia.
“Well its the truth, in Toronto for instance blacks make up around 7% of the population, but over 70% of the murders last year were attributed to this small segment of the population. Economics has nothing to do with this; these people are not living in Dickensian poverty. I believe your adopting the logic that has driven Western social policy for so long: that any difference in economic and social outcome between groups is the result of social injustice and adverse discrimination. I donât even think the premises of multiculturalism even permits asking whether reasons internal to the groups themselves might account for differences in out-comes. Most of these thugs come from very unstable homes, are usually, literally speaking, bastards, who have no father figures to keep them in line.”
So what you think African culture promotes anti-social behaviour? Or is it a matter of genetics.
Spencerd wrote,
Ann
You keep on Salaming us; I thought you were a nonpracticing Catholic. Although it is none of my business, I hope you havenât made your Shahada.
you really are VERY stupid, aren’t you Spencerd?
Traveller thinks you are forgetting to take your medication but for you, the only correct description is:
ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS NO MATCH FOR NATURAL STUPIDITY
She is Ann. I am Anna. Spot the difference genius.
Hi Spencerd,
I alerted you to the fact that there are serious social issues that we need to worry about as a human society, you responded by saying
“Poor thing, rather you should be scared of catastrophes such as the rise in teenage pregnancies, homosexuality, pornography, divorce rates, ecological issues, nuclear arms….”
“And we’re all to believe somehow Islam is an answer to all the above social ills.”
Now, think about that yourself, what kind of response you have given. And you expect us to take your sanity seriously?
Spencerd,
I take back the insult, I know I always do that.
But you need to be more objective and less blinded by whatever subjective experience that is affecting your thought process.
I was raising serious factual issues that affect the society, you responded with an unrelated sarcasm implying that I am suggesting Islam is the answer to all the above social ills.
Ofcourse I do believe, Islam has a comprehensive response to these problems, however but that is off the point. The point is that you are more concerned about muslims that you are concerned about your own moral values and principles.
I mean, how far is this anti-muslim-bashing and hysteria going to go.
I suggest you switch off your television and spend quality time with your family. Perhaps, you will begin to see some of the good that exists out there in everyone.
Well, Ted, since you asked for one, I’ll say Kuwait, since it’s the one I’m most familiar with. There are many Christian churches here; they have diplomatic relations wth the Vatican; there are other temples which technically shouldn’t be allowed (e.g., Hindu and Sikh), but the goverment turns a blind eye; there are some Kuwaiti families who have always been Christian - one of them is the pastor of one of the Anglican churches here - and they have the same rights as any other citizens.
When I came here, I wasn’t Muslim, and all of the non-Muslims that I knew were perfectly happy with their fredom of worship.
In fact, their charities and sermons aren’t being monitored like the Muslims’ are, so they might even be more free to practice their religions.
Kuwait? So your idea of an Islamic country with religious freedom is a state where Islamic law is the main source of legislation, where Islamic religious education is compulsory for all students, where Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists are not allowed to build places of worship for themselves, where anti-Semitic material appears in official government education material and where non-Muslims are not allowed to become citizens.
The French Riots and the Blame Game
In examining the recent riots across France, it is tempting to level blame on the supposedly irreconcilable differences between the secular West and Islam. The rioters, after all, were largely the children of Muslim migrants from North and West Afric…
OK everyone i think what is evidently clear is that no-one hates each other.
But we disagree on the way to organise society.
SO yes there is a battle of ideas. Islam vs Capitalism vs Communism
This does not mean that we treat each other differently, or with harshness.
SO yes there is a “battle of ideas”
and I believe that Islam is Superior than western civilisation. Because the foundations of Islam are built upon rational thought and the system with emenates from this can solve the problems of HUmanity.
I belive western civilisation is not built on thinking and people just follow it blindly without providing proof of its correctness. And its system creates decadence and backwardness in society.
Thank you. Hope you all remain healthy. Time will tell which ideology is stronger.