Minette Marrin parrots the SookhDevil

In the Sunday Times today, there’s a very weird article by Minette Marrin entitled Muslim apartheid burns bright in France, in which the author describes how she once lived in a beautiful village in the Camargue near Montpellier, until everything went sour:

Then the government rapidly developed the beautiful coast for mass tourism and a lot of building went on everywhere. But our village remained much the same, with a bull ring and a church in the main square full of plane trees, a few cafes, a smart pharmacy and not much else. For years we were the only foreigners and while nobody paid us much attention, everyone was pleasant enough. By the end we were on friendly terms with quite a few people.

I say by the end, because we left. We sold the house a few years ago because the atmosphere of the village had gone sour. … The first sign I noticed, one Easter, was the arrival of a lot of new people, north Africans to judge from their appearance, who seemed to spend most of the time hanging around in the streets looking lost and forlorn. That was not surprising; unemployment in France was about 14% at that time and much higher round there.

What surprised us was the animosity that people in the village felt for the Arabs, as they called them when they didn’t use worse words. Nobody talked to them or played with their children. I think ours were the only children in the main square who did. In every shop there would be angry mutterings among indigenous people about them and us — how they were parasites, thieves and ignorant; they wouldn’t even have their children inoculated. You had to lock your doors. And there were so many of them.

Marrin was living in what she described as long-established Le Pen country, but the phenomenon of foreigners, rich or poor, being on the receiving end of the natives’ hostility is not unknown and not confined to that part of the country. Marrin notes that the film La Haine (Hate) was made in 1995, a full ten years ago, and notes that it’s “odd that it has taken the French so long to wake up to the alarming failure of their much vaunted un-Anglo-Saxon society to accommodate its Muslims”, and mentions the “hellish high-rise suburbs from Seville to Rotterdam, in numbers so huge that integration became ever more unlikely and ghettos more inevitable”.

So it’s all the more surprising to see that her article concludes with an obvious paraphrase of Patrick Sookhdeo’s diatribe in the Spectator, which is full of half-truths, red herrings and stupid alarmism. I intend, insha Allah, to write a letter to the Times answering this. Given that Marrin is aware of the attitudes of some (many) French to Arabs, why should anyone be surprised that they are ghettoised and that the circumstances of a riot emerge? It’s nothing to do with any desire for a caliphate (where were the girls in hijabs?), but just for plain and simple respect.

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  • http://dictatorprincess.blogspot.com cncz

    i’ll never forget moving to Montpellier when I was 17…we were warned not to go to “certain parts of town”, areas I later ventured into and had no problem. Also, even though I was American, I got stopped for an ID check just for walking with an “Arab.”

    I do think the hostility is much more out in the open in the South of France. When I was in Paris, people played lip service to not being racist, but the fact is they never went to the “shady” parts of town.

  • bikhair

    cncz,

    I live in California and no one really goes to the shady parts of towns. But my city is so huge and flat that one very nice neighborhood, like mine, can be next to a very bad area. There are places that people know are just too ghetto when especially during the bloody 1980s and the early 1990s, we had our crack cocaine problems. Also keep in mind that these neighborhoods are almost always predominately black and latino.

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2005/11/13/minette_marrin_parrots_the_soo#more Thersites

    It’s odd, given that for a very long time France absorbed immigrants much more easily than other european countries. Sarkozy, for example, is the son of a Hungarian Foreign Legionary. Take a look at French politics science and culture and you will find Polish, Italian, Armenian, Russian, spanish names. The one requirement- a pretty reasonable one- was that immigrants had to be wiling to become French in outlook and psychology. There’s also a certain irony in people who complain about their lack of education burning down schools.

  • George Carty

    The problem is that French-style laicité demands that religion be relegated to the private sphere. OK for orthodoxic religions like Christianity, but bad news for orthopraxic religions like Islam.

  • Old Pickler

    Good point, George. So logically, Muslims, if they are to be true to their faith should not choose to live in France, despite its cushy welfare system, and should emigrate if they were born there.

    You wouldn’t hear the rest of the French complain.

  • Ann

    Yeah, those neighborhoods look real “cushy”… @@

  • Old Pickler

    Ann, they are cushy compared to the shitholes they or their parents came from. And considering these people don’t work, what, in the way of accomodation and money are they actually entitled to? Zero. Nada.

    France owes them nothing.

  • George Carty

    And considering these people don’t work, what, in the way of accomodation and money are they actually entitled to? Zero. Nada.

    OK, so you’re anti-welfare then. Given that French companies refuse to employ them, what then?

  • Old Pickler

    ‘Workfare’, American style. There are plenty of jobs that need doing. If they don’t work they shouldn’t eat. And if they can’t afford to breed, they keep it zipped. Simple.

  • http://goolmool.blogspot.com Siddharth

    George Cary: What is orthopraxis when used in the context of your sentence: orthopraxic religions like Islam?

  • George Carty

    Siddharth, an orthopraxic religion is one which emphasizes correct actions rather than correct beliefs (in Islam that would include things like salat, fasting, wearing of hijab etc).

  • bikhair

    “… an orthopraxic religion is one which emphasizes correct actions rather than correct beliefs (in Islam that would include things like salat, fasting, wearing of hijab etc)…”

    George Carty, I couldnt disagree with you more. Aqeedah- belief, is very important in Islam. There cant be ibadah-worship which includes salat, fasting, zakat, without correct aqeedah.

  • http://goolmool.blogspot.com Siddharth

    George: Wearing of hijab is not mandatory and its sanction is open to debate.

    As for belief-based - Islam’s first and foremost of its five pillars is Faith which is encapsulated in the Shahahada which is the bearing of witness to God and the Prophet.

  • http://dhimmi-world.blogspot.com/ wendy mann

    so these people are born in fracne, they are educated in france yet they are denied equality because of their color.

    25% of these graduates are unemployed and yet 4% of white graduates are unemployed.

    how does this happen in a society that claims to be both secular and equal?

    if the wider society has closed its doors and denied true integration what are those people supposed to do?

    these riots were not because they wanted to have separation , or be isolated they were rioting in the first instance because of the perceived injustice of the 2 dead individuals and secondly because they want to be accepted by the white host community as equal partners with equal opportunities.

    france is a chrsitian ‘secular’ state and to claim it is anything else is a lie. what they need to do is wake up to this and understand that one can be french and different.

  • http://www.ummah.com/waragainstislam/ zionist critic

    “‘Workfare’, American style. There are plenty of jobs that need doing. If they don’t work they shouldn’t eat. And if they can’t afford to breed, they keep it zipped. Simple.”

    An excellent example of the rantings of the bigoted right-wing lunatic beliefs prevalent amongst Jewish and Christian fascists.

    For further reading about these riots withing the bigoted and racist ramblings from the likes of Pickler, see:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1641907,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,1641463,00.html

  • Ann

    Old Pickler, I don’t know what’s happening to you, but you’re getting worse and worse…

    I wonder if you’d feel comfortable saying the same kinds of things about other ethnic/religious groups.

    There’s no question that French citizens of Arab/Muslim/African origin are discriminated against. Some people advocate that companies review resumes (CVs) only after the names and addresses have been taken off, because every study has shown that otherwise, any resumes which have Arab names or addresses in these “estates” will be ignored.

  • Ben

    Old Pickler, I have been reading this blog for a while, and I just have to say a few things about you. You are a racist, cowardly, know it all big mouth with a a giant superiority complex. You are a hateful, ignorant bigot who projects her own defects onto an entire religious group of one billion people. You calim to be ‘civilized’ yet the way you conduct yourself and your arguments on this blog suggests otherwise! You speak of Muslims as though they are animals. You claim to have sympathy for Muslim women but I doubt this is the case, as you call their clothes “potato sacks”. How would you like it if a Muslim woman said “Oh I feel so sorry for Old Pickler, she has to dress like a cheap whore!” You keep telling the Muslims on here to “move to Saudia Arabia or Iran”, yet you are the one who needs to move if anyone—seeing you disagree with religious freedom and oppourtunities for immigrants. Those are to values of the ‘civilized’ west that you seem to strongly disagree with. So I suggest you move to Alaska, Pickler. Im sure you will never have to see another immigrant or Muslim face again, which should make you quite happy. The Muslims on this blog have shown incredible restraint dealing with you, something that I don’t have. You should be glad they haven’t banned you by now.

  • Old Pickler

    I wonder if you’d feel comfortable saying the same kinds of things about other ethnic/religious groups.

    If their members flew planes into buildings, blew themselves up on the tube and honour killed women, then yes I would.

    Ben - I don’t disagree with religious freedom and opportunities for immigrants. But the indigenous population has to come first.

    In France, the ethnic Vietnamese have been no problem and have integrated well, as have Jews. In Britain Hindus and Sikhs, who are generally the same race as Muslims have integrated very well, as, to be fair have Muslims from Uganda.

    I don’t deny that there is genuine racism in France - far more than in the UK - but it’s always the same old story from Muslims - nothing is ever their fault.

  • Ben

    How would you feel about a group (western europeans) that fought the two bloodiest, deadliest wars in history that killed tens of millions of more people than all muslim atrocities in history put together?

  • Ben

    BTW Pickler, the majority of Arabs in Frace ARE indegenous people, third generation French born and raised.

  • Old Pickler

    Well they don’t act it.

  • Ben

    So, the youth who rioted in France in 1968 didn’t act French either? Not to mention 1789….

  • Old Pickler

    Ask them whether or not they are French. Their loyalty is not to France, but to the ummah.

    There are reasons for this, but poverty is not one of them.

    If Muslims can integrate and feel loyalty to the country they reside in, then there is no problem. Many do. Some, like those from Uganda to the UK, make an exceptional contribution. But some actively repudiate the values of the country they live in, and of course non-Muslims feel threatened by that.

  • Ben

    Im curious Pickler, how exactly does person residing in Britain who choses not to eat pork,to abstain from alcohol, to pray five times a day, go to a Mosque on Friday, and choosing to wear a headscarf threaten your existence?

    “Ask them whether or not they are French. Their loyalty is not to France, but to the ummah.”

    That sounds like the same tripe the American Natavist Party of the 1840’s used to use on Catholics. hmm…

    “Ask them whether or not they are American. Their loyalty is not to the Constitution, but to the Pope”.

    Or, what about anti-semites of the nineteenth century?

    “Ask them whether or not they are German. Their loyalty is not to the Jewish race, not to Germany.”

    Amazing isn’t it?

  • Ben

    It should read

    “”Ask them whether or not they are German. Their loyalty is to the Jewish race, not to Germany.”“

  • thabet

    Do you think white urban youth dream of cycling spinsters, cricket and warm beer, Old Pickler?

  • Ben

    Judging from the looks of the rioters, and from the images I have seen of the French suburban ghettoes, I doubt they are rioting for a Caliphate. I also doubt the youth feel more loyalty to Algeria, or to Tunasia, than they do to France—if they feel loyalty to anything at all! When I was 16 or 17 I certainly didn’t think in those terms! How can you seriously think this is some kind of Islamist Conspiracy OP?

  • Old Pickler

    Ben - it’s not a conspiracy, but it is not unrelated to Islam. Cries of ‘allahu ackbar’ torching of synagogues, stoning of a woman - bit of a giveaway.

  • Old Pickler

    The comparison with Germany’s Jews is outrageous. Jews were productive members of society who earned their own living, not parasites who torched cars.

  • Ben

    “The comparison with Germany’s Jews is outrageous. Jews were productive members of society who earned their own living, not parasites who torched cars.”

    They could be that or, if you ask any number of Germans on the street in the 1920s, they were parasites who lived off of other people’s debts (interest banking) and dangerous Bolsheviks who ‘stabbed germany in the back’ in November of 1918.

    In addition, well into the 19th century the Jews in europe were poor and ghettoized, especially in Eastern Europe.

    We Jews didn’t win any popularity contests with Europeans until after the Second World War, so don’t tell me otherwise Pickler.

    As to rioting, I could talk about the numerous riots in New York City carried out mostly by Irish Catholics in the 1850s and 60s. Nativists cried that it proved they were trying to make America a vassal state of the Pope. Im sure you would have been right there with them, OP.

    The hysteria surrounding muslims in europe today speaks to the previous examples in history above, not to some wacked out fantasy of a “Eurabian Caliphate” in 2020. Strangely enough, fantasizing about such an unlikely and absurd notion is about the only thing morons from HT and neo-nativists like OP hold in common.

  • http://goolmool.blogspot.com Siddharth

    Don’t be offended by the urinal scrawls that are OP’s posts. The only way she can ask for an intellectual joust is by being truculent. She’s a lovable old trollop really.

  • Ben

    “Cries of ‘allahu ackbar’ torching of synagogues, stoning of a woman - bit of a giveaway.”

    Care to give me an example of each? I bet there are quite a few Mosques that have been burned in the rioting as well.

    If its not caused by poverty OP, why don’t the six million muslims in America riot, while African Americans have?

  • Ben

    “Don’t be offended by the urinal scrawls that are OP’s posts.”

    I just don’t take to de-humanizing metaphors (‘breeading like rabbits, parasites’,) applied to religious minorities too well!

  • bikhair

    Ben,

    “If its not caused by poverty OP, why don’t the six million muslims in America riot, while African Americans have?”

    I think they dont riot because all the Pakistanis and Arabs out here make way too much money, and are to busy chasing the dunyah. Not even the black Muslim in the states riot. They are not as rich as thier immigrant counterparts but the last riots we have had in this county have been over police brutality against blacks.

  • Ben

    “I think they dont riot because all the Pakistanis and Arabs out here make way too much money, and are to busy chasing the dunyah. Not even the black Muslim in the states riot.”

    I live in America so I am aware that immigrant Muslims here tend to do much better than their counterparts in Europe. I have a few arab friends and they say foreign policy aside America is actually one of the least bigoted countries towards Muslims (though more so pre-9.11).

    This is the point I am trying to make to OP—economics and racial discrimination, not religion, is the real reason behind the French riots.

    BTW, like the ‘92 riots in Los Angeles, an incident of French police brutality towards French Arabs touched off these riots.

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ Yusuf Smith

    BTW, like the ‘92 riots in Los Angeles, an incident of French police brutality towards French Arabs touched off these riots.

    Alleged incident of police brutality; the point being that the youths had seen so much of the real thing that they assumed that this is what was happening, and so did the community. The harrassment by police of young Arab men and women is something even outsiders have observed.

  • Old Pickler

    Brutality? Like police chasing a couple of thugs? Who stoooopidly got into an electrical substation, where the wicked kaffirs had posted this infidel notice, danger 5 trilliion volts, and, duh, got electrecuted?

    Oh, those evil infidels.

  • DrM

    As usual, sub-human scum pRickler plays with the facts….making light of the deaths of two young immigrants. Yusuf, you need to start deleting comments from those are here only to forment and promote hatred.

  • Old Pickelstein

    DrM - if I were to stand in the middle of a motorway, arguably I would be responsible for my own running over.

    These youths were, to put it mildly, architects of their own misfortune. Yet this is apparently an excuse to torch cars, shoot policemen, burn synagogues etc?

  • Shamilaskov

    “The comparison with Germany’s Jews is outrageous. Jews were productive members of society who earned their own living, not parasites who torched cars.”

    Like Ben said most jews in Europe were poor. Its only the Nazis who believed they were all rich. Anti-semitism in Europe was widespread way before the nazis existed. It wasn’t an issue of “they hated the jews because they were jealous of their wealth”.

  • anonymous

    Old pickler…

    picking on one of your comments. You wrote: Ben - I don’t disagree with religious freedom and opportunities for immigrants. But the indigenous population has to come first.

    But you also tend want more than that, don’t you? From your posts, you also tend to request that immigrants change their they governments, principles, lifestyles and perhaps religions in their home countries so as to come out of their backwardness and join you in civility.

    You seem to me as someone seriously blinded by pride/arrogance.

    Your likes are those who complain why there (foreign) are signs in Arabic, Urdu, and make a case that every immigrant MUST speak English, yet when you go their countries either for work or holiday, you ask how come no one speaks English there, how come there are no signs in English.

    You know this world was created by God for all kinds of people, but you somehow see your self and your ways as more important.

    We all need to learn tolerance and humility so as to live together in harmony.

    No other religion recognises the face of other peoples more than Islam.

  • Old Pickelstein

    From your posts, you also tend to request that immigrants change their they governments, principles, lifestyles and perhaps religions in their home countries so as to come out of their backwardness and join you in civility.

    Only if those things our incompatible with ours. Sharia law is incompatible with our lifestyle, so it needs to be left behind at the airport.

    I have no problem at all with Muslims praying, fasting, going to Mecca, giving to charity etc. But polygamy, honour killing, child marriage, stoning etc - yes, big problem.

  • Ben

    OP, you seem to have little to no compassion for others, judging from your reaction to the death of tose two boys. Perhaps if it was your children, you would feel differntly.

    Again Pickler why aren’t Muslims in the United States or Canada rioting, if its about Sharia instead of poverty?

    BTW OP please don’t try to be Jewish by changing your screen name, we really don’t need sympathy or help from the likes of you!

  • Ben

    ” But polygamy, honour killing, child marriage, stoning etc - yes, big problem.”

    With regards to polygamy, firstly it is already rare in muslim communities. Secondly, for the sake of argument lets say polygamy is legalized in the UK tomorrow. Please explain to me how it either picks your pocket or breaks your leg.

    ‘Honor killing’? I never got this distinction between ‘honor killing’ and plain old domestic abuse, other than one was done by brown people and the other by white people. How many ‘honor killings’ have taken place in Europe OP compared to the total number of domestic homocides?

    Stoning? The only stoning anyone needs to worry about comes from marijuana. Do you really believe that the UK is going to bring back stoning because some of its populace are Muslims? Do you have paranoid nightmares at night about being hunted down by swarthy masked Muslims carrying stones, threatening to kill you if you don’t become their fourth wife, or what?

  • DrM

    Great points Ben. Try to come up something remotely original then falling back on “honor killings” pRickler. Generally, there is nothing wrong with having nothing worthwhile to say - unless you insist on saying it. Reading your post makes blindness a wonderful thing to look forward to. You bring to mind a quote from Josh Billing: “Doesn’t know much, but leads the league in nostril hair.”

  • Old Pickler

    BTW OP please don’t try to be Jewish by changing your screen name, we really don’t need sympathy or help from the likes of you!

    It was, duh, a joke, because idiots here think that if you dislike Islam you must be a Jew.

    No, I have no sympathy for the idiot thugs that stupidly, stupidly went into an electrical substation - DANGER 2 MILLIION VOLTS - how thick can you be? Raisesthe average IQ.

    None at all.

    But in any case, how was this the fault of the infidel? People are responsible for their own cock ups, a lesson learnt in the West but not in the Islamic world.

    Polygamy, an uncivilised practice that belongs in the desert an the jungle, is sanctioned by Islam. Stoning is sanctioned by Islam.

    These are two of the reasons why I hate Islam.

  • http://quickgm28.blogs.com/ Ginny

    Assalamu alaikum / greetings all,

    Old Pickler, if you hate Islam so much than why do you feel the need to read Muslim blogs? I always found it strange that people who supposedly hate or dislike a certain group of people will visit their blogs / sites and may even also try to associate in some way with the very groups of people they so claim to hate or dislike!

    If there is a group of people I don’t like, then I’m not going to waste my time visiting and commenting on thier sites.

  • anonymous

    Old pickler,

    My question is this - do you object to muslim practising these things in their “home” countries, e.g polygamy,… I can’t recall the other things you mention to be part of Islam.

    I agree with you completely that they should be “dropped at the airport” for muslims coming to live in the UK as these things are illegal here.

    However, in their “home” countries, do you object…. would you like to see some of the muslim practices abolished whether here at home or there abroad?

  • anonymous

    Ginny, You have to understand that Old pickler hates many other things, as some of the things she is attributing to Islam are not specific to Islam. Funny enough a high proportion of non-muslims in this country have polygamous marital relations (in secret from both partners) whereas rarely do you find muslims in such relationships. Most muslims if not virtually all are in monogamous relationship.

    I guess, this forum helps Old pickler, I can see how a lot of your misconceptions will be shattered by keeping the company of muslims here.

  • Ben

    “Polygamy, an uncivilised practice that belongs in the desert an the jungle, is sanctioned by Islam. Stoning is sanctioned by Islam.”

    I ask again, OP, just hypothetically—if polygamy were legal, how exactly would it (a) take money from you or (b) physically hurt you?

    Leave the hot emotional lables out of it, just explain to me how it would interfere with your life exactly.

    It is not an endorsement of polygamy by me, just curious as to why you are so rabid in your opposition to it.

    As to stoning, perhaps you could explain to me the instances under ISlamic law in which stoning is permitted—along with the rediculously high number of eye-witnesses needed for it to be carried out, from what I understand?

    BTW Orthodox Judaism also endorses stoning, but those laws are inactive as there is no Temple currently. So you should be thankful that the Muslims occupy the Temple Mount I suppose—otherwise there might be more stonings!

  • Ben

    I think you would be interested to know also, OP, that the idea of legalized monogamy had nothing to do with women’s rights or Christianity. It was first standardized in ancient Greece, but it had to do with the property rights of males.

  • Ben

    “No, I have no sympathy for the idiot thugs that stupidly, stupidly went into an electrical substation - DANGER 2 MILLIION VOLTS - how thick can you be? Raisesthe average IQ.”

    He was a KID that was scared out of his wits.

    Seriously, is the part of your brain that controls empathy dead or something? Or is it only dead when it comes to strange, brown foreginers.

    Im sure if it was an English teenager you would think the police are complete bastards.

  • Old Pickler

    Ben - polygamy would affect me, as a taxpayer, were we to allow it in Britain. We are not talking here about wives who will be economically active, useful, productive members of British society. We are talking about uneducated brood mares from ‘back home’. No modern, liberated woman would accept a polygamous marriage, so this is the type of wife you would get. A man, who, given that Muslim men have higher unemployment rates than any other group, is already living on benefits, would have, instead of one wife and five children, all living on benefits, four wives and twenty or more children.

    Recently an article from the Financial Times, no less, describing how polygamy contributed to the French riots:

    Gérard Larcher said multiple marriages among immigrants was one reason for the racial discrimination which ethnic minorities faced in the job market. Overly large polygamous families sometimes led to anti-social behaviour among youths who lacked a father figure, making employers wary of hiring ethnic minorities, he explained.

  • Shamil

    “I think you would be interested to know also, OP, that the idea of legalized monogamy had nothing to do with women’s rights or Christianity. It was first standardized in ancient Greece, but it had to do with the property rights of males.”

    Thats true. Infact Martin Luther had a revisionist opinion of Catholicism’s attitude to polygamy based on the fact that it is actually sanctioned by the Bible.

    “Recently an article from the Financial Times, no less, describing how polygamy contributed to the French riots:”

    Are you saying that the French allow polygamy?

    Common. Most muslims in France are secularised anyway and wouldn’t want to do it. If this was true I think the government would be more worried about it than women’s headscarves.

  • http://dunner99.blogspot.com/ JDsg

    OP wrote: “No modern, liberated woman would accept a polygamous marriage…”

    Prove it.

  • Old Pickler

    It is simply illogical, a contradiction in terms. By definition, a modern, liberated woman regards herself as equal to her husband and would not, therefore share him with another wife. A man may have more than one wife, but a woman only one husband. The total, absurd, one sided utter inequality of this makes it impossible for a woman who regards herself as equal to her husband.

    Of course stupid women may allow it and many women simply have no choice.

  • Shamil

    “By definition, a modern, liberated woman regards herself as equal to her husband and would not, therefore share him with another wife.”

    A lot of so called modern women don’t want to get married at all. Infact in some European countries (not Britain) the governments are having to pay women to get pregnant due to decreasing birth rates. Is not wanting to have children a progressive value as well?

  • Ben

    “Ben - polygamy would affect me, as a taxpayer, were we to allow it in Britain. We are not talking here about wives who will be economically active, useful, productive members of British society.”

    OP, Im so glad you know every woman who would be in such a relationship would fail to meet your definition of “useful”. However assuming what you say is true, why not have forced abortions for illegitimate children? While we are at it, why not euthenize old folks in nursing homes? They just suck up all your tax money and aren’t productive members of society after all!

    “No modern, liberated woman would accept a polygamous marriage, so this is the type of wife you would get.”

    You are poisioning the well again.

    Nevertheless historically polygamy was very rare among Muslims, usually only occuring in welathy families.

    Israel had issues with polygamy as well early on in its existance. Many Sephardic Jews had more than one wife when the immigrated, leading to much hardship when they were forced to divorce once they got to Israel. It still goes on (illegaly) with Ethiopian and some Sephardic Jews today.

  • Ben

    BTW OP, if you are this concerned about people having kids they can’t afford, why aren’t you for a one child limit (a la China) or criminalizing adultrey?

  • Old Pickler

    if you are this concerned about people having kids they can’t afford, why aren’t you for a one child limit (a la China) or criminalizing adultrey?

    That doesn’t follow at all. It doesn’t follow that because people should be responsible about the size of their families and not breed at the expense of the taxpayer, they should only have one child. But polygamy leads to huge overbreeding amongst backward people - people who do it are backward by definition - and in the west they are a total drain on hard working taxpayers. Polygamy also leave some men deprived - if some have more than one wife, others have none. These sex-starved feral young men are precisely the ones causing all the trouble.

  • Ben

    It doesn’t? It seems to me you are concerned a) about the size of peoples families and b) whether their children will be ‘productive’ or not.

    So wouldn’t it make sense if we take your viewpoint to its logical conclulsion to 1) criminilize adultrety as illigetamite children tend to be much less ‘productive’ and have more problems than children born in wedlock, 2) limit family size to one child so ‘productive’ people like you don’t have to pay for more schools, and 3) euthenize old folks in nursing homes as they aren’t ‘productive’ and just soak up taxpayer money?

  • Ben

    BTW Pickler it seems to slip your mind, as it does with many of the neo-nativists here in the States, that immigrants and children of immigrants pay taxes too. In addition, even when benefits are taken into account immigrants put more money back into the system than they take out. In fact Mexcians may be the only thing that will save social secrutiy in the United States!

  • bikhair

    Old Pickler,

    You are what we Americans call a douche bag. First of all any children will be a burden on tax payers especially in Europe where you have a national health system and public schooling.

  • Ann

    Assalaamu alaikum,

    I thought that if immigrants to France already were in polygynous marriages, they were allowed to stay in them.

    But it’s really pretty funny for the French officials to blame polygamy for their problems. Really, all one has to say is “President Mitterand”. And his mistress, who was basically also his wife for decades. And his famous, highly respected wife Danielle, who put up with this. The French are so “sophisticated” that this was never even reported in the newspapers, and he was able to keep this woman and their daughter a secret. (Extramarital affairs are considered very sophisticated and accepted, too.) The two of them were seen openly at his funeral, which must have been pretty humiliating for his wife… And they have the nerve to rave about men having two wives?!? What do you say about Mrs. Mitterand (the first), Old Pickler?

    And as Ben said, polygamy isn’t actually prohited in Jewish law. It was the European Jews who banned it in Israel, and fairly recently. It’s also found across Africa - not only in Muslim areas - and in other parts of the world. And we’re just talking about legalized polygyny, where the wife and children have rights - not extramarital affairs, where men have mistresses, but the mistresses and their children have no rights. That, of course, is found all over the world.

    Ginny, I agree completely. I wouldn’t think of going to Christian or Jewish or Hindu blogs and harassing them about their religious beliefs, or taking the worst examples I could find of what one of their co-religionists did and then trying to accuse them all of being like that, or going to blogs by individuals of certain ethnic groups and saying (over and over again) that they’re stupid and lazy and violent and have too many children and should all be sent back to where they came from… So I wonder why people come here just to insult and argue?

    Anonymous wrote: “Your likes are those who complain why there (foreign) are signs in Arabic, Urdu, and make a case that every immigrant MUST speak English, yet when you go their countries either for work or holiday, you ask how come no one speaks English there, how come there are no signs in English.”

    I think I’m repeating myself again, but this is such a good point. In the Arab Gulf countries, there are a lot of Westerners who live here for years, because they like the lifestyle, have maids, don’t have to pay taxes, etc. Most of them make absolutely no attempt to learn the language and many have no desire to even understand the culture; a lot of them even complain that their children have to take an Arabic (for foreigners) class in school! Can you imagine if someone wanted to live in the US or UK for 10 or 20 years, but refused to learn English and didn’t even want their children to be taught it in their schools?

  • anonymous

    One can’t help but to weep for Old pickler. ;) She is one of her kind. May God have mercy on her.

  • http://dunner99.blogspot.com/ JDsg

    OP wrote: “It is simply illogical, a contradiction in terms…”

    You have not proved that “No modern, liberated woman would accept a polygamous marriage…” You have merely made unsupportable assumptions. You seem to have been full of them today, with all of your “definitions.” Here, try this definition on for size: “People who oppose Islam and Muslims are, by definition, both backwards and stupid.” It must be true, right? After all, it’s by definition.

  • Ben

    JD, I believe the name of that logical fallacy OP so often commits is called “poisioning the well”.

  • http://dunner99.blogspot.com/ JDsg

    Ben: Thanks; I wasn’t familiar with the expression. You’re quite right re: OP.

  • Ann

    Old Pickler, you also conveniently forget that the UK has the highest rate of births to unmarried teenage mothers in the world. And that the taxpayer (you!) supports those teenaged mothers in their council flats. And that this is more prevalent with young white women there than with those of Asian or African background (who are more likely to get married before they have babies).

  • Old Pickelstein

    Ann - just because there are unmarried parasites breeding like rabbits at the taxpayer’s expense doesn’t make it any better to have polygamously married parasites doing the same.

    The same old cliche about Western men having mistresses is trotted out by Muslims every time. Men having mistresses is wrong. Ok, wrong. So what does Islam do? Make it legal, by allowing polygamy. But only for men, of course who can screw around with impunity and call it marriage, while women’s affairs are severely punished.

    Only backward places now allow it. And only backward religions, of which Islam is the most backward.

    And what about all those feral young men who can’t get a wife because they’ve been snapped up by the rich ones. They are the ones that torch cars and gang rape.

    As for your ridiculous argument about ex pats in the Middle East, where on earth would that backward, primitive area be without Western workers and expertise? Living in tents and riding around on camels, that’s where.

  • George Carty

    As for your ridiculous argument about ex pats in the Middle East, where on earth would that backward, primitive area be without Western workers and expertise? Living in tents and riding around on camels, that’s where.

    I think you have a point there - if the West managed to kick its addiction to Muslim oil, both civilizations would find themselves better off.

  • anonymous

    Only if I could swap my computer for a camel and a simpler and laid “back”-ward life.

  • anonymous

    Hey guys,

    I have a story/joke for you all. It comes to mind because of pickler’s lamentations that muslims are backward and she (as a western non-muslim) is englightened.

    I was once working abroad with a work colleague who in some ways has the same mentality as pickler. We were on some kind of equipment site that belongs to our employer’s customer. This was within the EU by the way. The only toilets located on the site were without toilet papers. It just happen that me and my colleague received the call of nature at the same time, so we head to the toilets together. When we got there, he exclaimed that there was no toilet paper. Oh bummer! I said. What are we going to do? I thought, I’ll look around and see if they kept the toilet papers elsewhere. Anyway, we couldn’t find toilet paper. As Asr prayer was closing in, I said to him - it doesn’t matter for me that there is no toilet paper, that I am comfortable using water. And I suggested to him to use water. We had loads of plastic bottles lieing around, so I filled one with water and off I went to do my thing.

    Guess what this guy said to me?

    He said:

    “You and your heathen ways”, and he was dead serious.

    I smiled, and didn’t say a word.

    The world is upside down, folks.

  • Another Anonymous

    I also used to be puzzled at why Muslims didn’t use toilet paper. I used to think it was so disgusting… Only after I became Muslim - years later - did I realize that they were probably thinking the same thing about me: “How disgusting! She doesn’t even wash with water! Just uses a dry piece of paper?”

  • Ben

    Since OP doesn’t want to criminilize adultrey and pre-marital sex, then I guess her real fear isn’t polygamy but scary looking (to her) brown skined foreigners having more babies.

    Taxes have nothing to do with it, OP. If that was your real concern, you would support the two above proposals—as there are many more cases of pre-marital sex among British then there are cases of illegal polygamy!

  • Ann

    “The same old cliche about Western men having mistresses is trotted out by Muslims every time.”

    Actually, I didn’t specify Western men; I said men all over the world. One example I was thinking of was something I had read about it being very normal for Hong Kong men to have a wife in Hong Kong and a mistress in nearby China. There are large numbers of children of these unions, and it’s pretty much expected; apparently, men who don’t do it are considered strange by their peers. Across the border in China, there are areas called “second wives’ villages” where young Chinese women come to be concubines or mistresses to Hong Kong men, who support them and their children…

    And it’s very much expected for men in other Southeast Asian societies to have mistresses, too. I know that you have a very narrow perspective, but if you look around, it really is pretty common.

    Anyway, I used to think that it was worthwhile discussing issues with you, Old Pickler, but I don’t think so anymore. So I’m just going to (try to) ignore whatever you say… the more you write, the more foolish you look, and I don’t think it’s even necessary to point out all of the problems with your comments.

  • anonymous

    To another anonymous,

    The problem is actually not in using toilet paper. I think that is okay, even in fiqh??? You can even use dust!

    The problem I was trying to highlight is that this guy like Old pickler have the audacity to think that me using water is “heathen”. This presupposes that his ways are the correct ways of the “un-heathens”, and anything other than his way is just nonsense. Indeed one could believe that in their heart (which is not the optimum), but to actually confront people on that basis is a bit arrogant and on another level.

    If you look at the Seerah, the Prophet (saw) will do something and people will copy him. He will never say to people, do this! don’t do that! as Ibn Abass narrated.

    This guy and the likes of Old pickler somehow thinks that they are entitled to a monopoly on cultural expressions and etiquettes -even that of other people, which ofcourse assumes some kind of cultural superiority that must be western by their definition. This is a deep sickness.

    When Islam came, it didn’t go around telling other cultures that they were heathens, backward, barbaric, etc… and indeed the Arab culture and many other ones at the time can be safely described in those terms. But rather the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the muslims by extension acted out their ways wherever they went and the people took what they liked from it and left what (they thought!) wasn’t useful to their circumstances. As I have heard Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad mentioned in some lectures, even in the construction of mosques, a mosque in China still bears resemblance to the indegenous architecture of those areas, whereas a mosque in Africa is culturally rooted, yet both are strongly identified to the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). The chinese muslims don’t think the African mosques are weird, nor do the African’s think the Chinese mosques are backward. Men may wear their hair different in Jamaica than people in England,…. and so on and so forth.

    So, there is something about Islam that allows people’s consciousness to evolve in the most natural, tolerant and humble way. Not in the ways of the Old picklers or even the ways of the terrorist or Talebans (who blew up the buddhist statues of that region, I heard a lecture from some Shaykh that the companions of the Prophet (saw) saw these statutes and didn’t destroy it, yet an entire buddhist culture of Afghanistan became muslim over that period).

    anyway…Interestingly, I started seeing this colleague of mine as heathen only after he said to me that my ways were “heathen”. …because he believed so much that what he was doing was just perfect…. if you get my point?

  • anonymous

    Ann,

    I used to see you as the most patient and the one with the most forebearance on this blog;-) Now finally, Old pickler has worn you out :(

    Allah sends his peace and blessings on the Prophet Muhammad!

    As not unexpected, we’ve all failed miserably to compete with the Prophet (peace be upon him) in these areas. He said: we should always “speak to people on the capacity of their intelligence”, and he wasn’t being funny. And there were many Old picklers for the Prophet(s) (aleihim salam), the Koran advices them to, “….have patience with what they say, and avoid them with noble dignity..”.

    What a tremendous state of mind one must have in order to do this,… whence Old pickler’s is even nothing!

    I think Old pickler is entitled to most of her weird analysis/opinions, but the main problem she has is that she is extremely rude, insulting, and racist (i am not sure what here own race is! white? asian? mixed? black?). She is definitely on the wrong blog. However, she is a good dars for practising sabr and restraint. Take advantage of her presence here to elevate yourselves. Everything in existence is a means of qurba (a means of gaining nearness to Allah).

  • http://www.amirbutler.com/archives/2005/11/22/57 Amir Butler

    The French Riots and the Blame Game

    In examining the recent riots across France, it is tempting to level blame on the supposedly irreconcilable differences between the secular West and Islam. The rioters, after all, were largely the children of Muslim migrants from North and West Afric…