Indigo Jo Blogs

See what happens when Muslims follow the kufar down a lizard hole? There is a hadith about that.

To me, holocaust denial ranks up there with "Apollo never landed on the moon" and "the earth is flat." With most people, I'd ignore them completely, but the Iranian President is too visible for us to ignore. I think for people who don't understand that people who talk like this are cranks (just as, for example, flat-earthers are cranks), we have to state the self-evident fact that the Iranian President is an idiot.

That man in Iran (he doesn't deserve the benefit oh me mentioning his name) is a loud mouthed puss hole.

You were reaching detente with Europe, then your idiot President apes neo-nazis. Way to go, Iran!

If their leaders have any sense they will sack him. However, I doubt they do.

Their previous President had about twenty times as much brain capicity as this nut job.

Freedland protesth a bit too much. Theres a holocaust going on right now in Iraq and Palestine, and yet they are cheerleading for more. All Ahmednejad has do is to open his mouth and the usual suspects go crazy. I dont recall a similar reaction when Golda Meir said "there was no such thing as a Palestinian" along with plenty of similar outrageous statements by Israeli offcials, rabbis etc. Not that this excuses Ahmednejad's comments, but they were made in the context of Europeans transplanting zionists into Palestine. I have to wonder how racist it was to go to an area, displace a million people, steal their land and give to a bunch from another continent. Ethnic cleansing anyone?

One other point I'd like to make is that Hitler and the Nazis are really to blame for the current mess in the Middle East.

Before the Holocaust, most Jews were anti-Zionist, but in the aftermath of World War II, with Europe's Jewish communities wiped out, the surviving Jews viewed Israel as "the only game in town". Without the flood of Holocaust survivors into Palestine, the State of Israel would have had too small a population to be viable.

Hitler turned millions of Jews into ashes. He turned the remainder into Zionists.

a holocaust going on right now in Iraq and Palestine,

Nonsense. There is no comparison.

Many Muslims deny the holocaust, while simultaneously thinking it was a good start.

It has been said that there is a thin and permeable line between anti-Zionists and jew haters; just as there is such a line between those who produce critiques of Islamism and those who are simply racists. Muslims who complain about the real and pervasive anti-Islamism which is often borne of plain and simple racism do not have a leg to stand on when they themselves buy into anti-Zionism but are at the same time willing to tow the line of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.

It is possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic just as Muslims are correct to demand anti-Islamist voices without the ignorant racism. Muslims should be aware that they do not need to be anti-Semitic in order to support the rights of Palestinians. South Asian Muslims who live in the West come hard-wired for Hindu-Muslim sectarianism seem only too willing to add on the additional baggage of anti-Semitism which they accept carte blanche from the legacy of anti-Semitism which is active in the West. I am not sure why that is because Jews were never part of the social make up of communities in South Asia. Muslim immigrants are willing to absorb some of the best traits of the West, why are they so willing to absorb anti-Semitism, which is undoubtedly one of the worst?

When Muslim politicians like Ahmadinejad deny the Holocaust and speak in the voice of anti-Semitism, he speaks for the entire Muslim world, whether they want him to or not. Muslims should be able to reject this kind of reactionary real-politik as Ahmadinejad's sentiment and not the sentiment of Muslims such as you or I. They should know that Ahmadinejad is making these remarks for political reasons and not because he is a Muslim. This applies to any politician or organisation who speaks on "behalf of Muslims".

In a period Jews still look back on as a golden age, Muslims were the people of scholarship, of science, of tolerance and coexistence - a contrast with the Crusader barbarians.

This whole thing is so weird; for centuries Jews lived and flourished in Muslim lands. Indeed, Jews were first allowed to return to Jerusalem only after its capture by Muslims. Even now, there is no reason to suppose Jews couldn't coexist peacefully with Muslims, -except ONE reason that is: The Jewish persecution of Palestinians. It's as though they forget the Palestinians are Muslim and by treating them so cruelly they alienate the entire Muslim world. All they have to do is stop this and share the land equally and without prejudice with each other. There is no need calling for Jews to move to Alaska or anywhere else, apart from it being pure fantasy, there is so much good Jews could bring to a peaceful Israel/Palestine and the rest of the region...the scholarship, science and tolerance that existed centuries ago and that Mr. Freedland talks of could be re-established, --this time led by Jews, of course.

To a lot of us Muslims it's a complete mystery why Jews are so hell bent on pushing the "clash of civilisations" propaganda allegedly between the West and Muslims. The majority of the proponents of this theory are Jews.

Ahmedinejad's comments should and will be dismissed by most Muslims.

Yeah, the holocaust denial thing is wrong. It did happen. It is also clear that some people will use it, the holocaust, to promote their own political agendas. A well known Jewish writer, Finkelstein wrote about that very subject.

Muslim and Arab anti-Semitism, whilst wrong, cannot be seen in the same light as the traditional European anti-Semitism because they stem from different sources for different reasons.

My problem with it is not only is it stupid, not only does it go against Islam, but that it is a way for Arab and Islamic leaders to deflect from their own problems and issues. "The Jews" has been an excuse that many leaders have used throughout the years to justify their own awful actions.

Time to stop blaming and worrying about others and address our own issues.

Salaam

Was Israel the only game in town? Chomsky wrote (can't remember the source absolutely, but I am sure it's the Fateful Triangle) that for most of the Jews who survived the holocaust, the first choice was America. Think about it! Would you want to go live where you have no economic or social promise, where you are not welcome? Or would you like to go to America? There must have been some sort of incentive for all these people to risk going to Palestine, which was not a sugary option right then! Why did all these people think that Palestine was a good option? Maybe someone can educate me! (Chomsky stated that more researh needs to be done here, I am just posting FYI, oh that's interesting!)

Wassalam

I am far more insulted by the fact that this dirty Shiite in Iran insults the companions of Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) and makes the most disparaging remarks about our noble mother Aisha (radiyallahu anhu). I wish we Muslim would talk about that.

As Muslims why should we care what this guy says about anything else knowing the Rafidah Shiite understanding or lack thereof of the Sahabah? What could be more important than them?

Let the Holocaust people deal with his comments about the Holocaust. As Muslims, it isnt our fight, it isnt our concern, we have Allah to fear and Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) to obey.

Way too much Hizbiyah going on on this forum.

Bikhair,

I agreed with your first post but knew it was a feeling that wouldn't last, and surprise, surprise, you've proved me right, there you go again - your second post is a massive disappointment.

Why do you have to be such a Takfeeri?

Islam is more in danger from you and those that share your views.

I think someone needs to clear up what exactly is a Zionist, in the modern context.

A Zionist is anyone that recognizes Israel as a state. It follows that, if one is an 'anti-zionist' they then wish to 'wipe Israel off the map' such as the Iranian president proposed.

Being a Zionist does not mean you do not recognize that the Palestianis exist as a people. Being a Zionist does not make you a racist. Being a Zionist does not mean you oppose the existence of a Palestinian state.

I believe the Palestinians are a people that deserve a state, and that Israel should withdraw from the West Bank, Golan Heights, and reach a compromise agreement to share Jerusalem as soon as possible. Yet, I am still a Zionist.

With respect to Jews under Muslim rule; yes, Muslim rule was preferable to Byzantine rule in the Levant. I addition, Muslim Spain was a tolerant (for the time) place for Jews--but guess what?

Pre-Islamic Visigothic Spain was more tolerant.

In addition the tolerance didn't last very long. Doesn't anyone remember the Almohads? Life for a Jew in Castillian Spain wasn't much different than life for one under the Almohads.

Zorastrian Persia is a another place where Jews were treated better and given more autonomy before Muslim conquest.

So really, it is more nuanced. In some places the lot of Jews improved under Muslim rule; in other places, worsened.

...Nonsense. There is no comparison......

I dont recall asking your opinion pRickler. So you're a holocaust denier, what a shock.

...Many Muslims deny the holocaust, while simultaneously thinking it was a good start....

Now this is rubbish...funny how you euroslime always try to pass the buck to us. Some Muslims have a become a bit hard hearted about it, but thats mostly die to zionist terrorism.

Salaam alaikum, What is so frustrating about this is that one Muslim says an anti-Semitic statement and his/her opinion is splattered all over the Muslim community. The Iranian president lives miles away from me and yet someone will ask me how do I feel about Jews just because of his statement. It's not fair.

If the Pope says something anti-Islamic, I'm not going to assume all Christians or all Catholics feel the same way. That is his opinion and yes, holocaust denial is incredibly stupid and very insulting to the millions who were murdered. But I wish people would give us the benefit of a doubt and realize that we are not some homogenous group of people. Just because some prominent Muslim, whether it's Osama bin Hidin' or Mohammad Mahathir, says something anti-Semitic doesn't mean that I feel the same way just because we're Muslims.

Unfortuantley generalization is a very human disease. It goes on on both sides, however.

How many Arabs think that the statements of George W. Bush or Rumsfeld represent the sentiments of almost all Americans or westerners?

Or how about when David Horrorwitz calls Palestinians 'cockroaches'; Muslims assume all Jews view the Palestinians this way?

The Iranian president hurt the Palestinians much more than he did Israel with his statements. This will give a great opening for many right wing politicians in Israel to further criticize progress being made on peace.

Of course, I seriously doubt the Iranian government really wants peace and a Palestinian state. Because of course, it would take away their favorite red herring; and they would have to discuss something more complicated--like the sorry state of the Iranian economy.

Posted-When Muslim politicians like Ahmadinejad deny the Holocaust and speak in the voice of anti-Semitism, he speaks for the entire Muslim world, whether they want him to or not. Muslims should be able to reject this kind of reactionary real-politik as Ahmadinejad's sentiment and not the sentiment of Muslims such as you or I. They should know that Ahmadinejad is making these remarks for political reasons and not because he is a Muslim. This applies to any politician or organisation who speaks on "behalf of Muslims".

So having said that do you think that when a Jewish leader in Israel speaks they speak for the whole worlds Jews? Remember one leader there was famously quoted as saying they were going to smash the Palestinians like bugs.

Does this count for them too?

"So having said that do you think that when a Jewish leader in Israel speaks they speak for the whole worlds Jews? Remember one leader there was famously quoted as saying they were going to smash the Palestinians like bugs.

Does this count for them too?"

In the eyes of most Arabs and especially their media? Sadly, yes.

It's worth remembering that quite a lot of the jews in Israel- the ones that tend to support Likud- were expelled from arab countries and their property confiscated in the early 1950s. I wonder whether they'd be welcomed back now, compensated and their property returned. Under muslim rule jews may not have suffered as they did in Europe, but they were still second-class subjects, restricted in what they could study or the jobs they could take and liable to pogroms when the populace needed distraction from other things.

And why the surprise that muslims believe in conspiracy theories? After all islam- like every religion- is an open conspiracy itself with openly announced aims. Given that in the eyes of many muslims it is obviously true then the only reason why we kufrs continue to ignore it and refuse to become muslims must be because there are other satanic conspiracies fighting against islam. The fact that Israelis- pigs and monkeys, in popular parlance- have occupied some of the holiest places in islam cannot be natural.

"It's worth remembering that quite a lot of the jews in Israel- the ones that tend to support Likud- were expelled from arab countries and their property confiscated in the early 1950s."

Its not as simple as saying they were 'expelled' by the arab states, the situation was different in each country. In some cases Jews in the arab world simply couldn't live in a country where they could be seen as potential traitors; as every arab state was in an official state of war with Israel at the time. In other countries, actual expulsions.

Their property was taken but these immigrants were given a very nice immigration aid package when they came to Israel.

"The fact that Israelis- pigs and monkeys, in popular parlance- have occupied some of the holiest places in islam cannot be natural."

Heh, the 'pigs and monkeys' thing again.

Actually, I don't believe that the Quran--unlike the New Testament--is anti-semitic. It is just strongly Islamophobic.

According to Muslim tradition the ancient Israelites were Muslims. It follows that; If they were Muslims, and did all the rotten things the Quran accuses them of, then the Quran is Islamophobic, not anti-semitic.

Thersite,

"The fact that Israelis- pigs and monkeys, in popular parlance- have occupied some of the holiest places in islam cannot be natural."

Another area of ignorance for Muslims. Yes it is true Allah (azawajal) punished those sabbath breaking Jews by turning them into swine and monkeys but if you read ibn kathirs tafsir of those ayats that refer to that story, and Ibn Abbas tafsir of that story you will see that these wretched animals didnt live very long, and didnt procreate. They didnt have decendents, the Jews of 2005 cant be thier progeny. Gosh Muslims are so jahil. I so get your point.

"thersites" I think you engaging in historical revisionism, much of which denies the Holocaust. It is a proven fact that Arab Jews were targeted by Zionist false flag terror attacks. Conspirasy theories? Look whos talking! The same crowd which continues peddling lies about WMDs, yellow cake and other rubbish. While you're at it , learn what a semite is.

According to Muslim tradition the ancient Israelites were Muslims. It follows that; If they were Muslims, and did all the rotten things the Quran accuses them of, then the Quran is Islamophobic, not anti-semitic.

LOL. Ben, this is quite a new spin on things.

It is true we believe ancient Israelites were Muslim. Surely it is not ALL of them that are "accused of doing rotten things"?. The ones that continued to follow the teachings of Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) and Prophet Moses(Peace be upon him) were/are still viewed as good people upon whom no fear shall come?

It is true we believe ancient Israelites were Muslim. Surely it is not ALL of them that are "accused of doing rotten things"?. The ones that continued to follow the teachings of Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) and Prophet Moses(Peace be upon him) were/are still viewed as good people upon whom no fear shall come?

Well, you can't have it both ways; really. Either both the good and bad ones were Muslims, or they were not. You can't say the good ones were Muslims and the bad ones were Jews! According to the Quran they were both Muslims. So the Sabbath breaking 'pigs and monkeys' were Muslim.

'"thersites" I think you engaging in historical revisionism, much of which denies the Holocaust. It is a proven fact that Arab Jews were targeted by Zionist false flag terror attacks. Conspirasy theories? Look whos talking! The same crowd which continues peddling lies about WMDs, yellow cake and other rubbish. While you're at it , learn what a semite is.'

Certainly, the Israeli intelligence services fomented antisemitism in arab countries. By no means all of the attacks on jews were false flag though and there wasn't much effort by the countries concerned to persuade their jewish citizens to remain. There were plenty of people willing to attack jews for their own reasons. The "pigs and monkeys" accusation may, technically, only apply to a bunch of fictional jews many years ago but that doesn't stop it being used still. Semite in English is used accurately, technically, to apply to a group of related languages and their speakers; antisemitism, however, has been used for a long time as a term for specifically anti-jewish prejudice. This may be regrettable in the eyes of other semites, but that's the way it is.

The "pigs and monkeys" accusation may, technically, only apply to a bunch of fictional jews many years ago but that doesn't stop it being used still.

I think some of this, in addition to Israeli politicians referring to Palestinians as 'cockroaches' and such, is simply over blown rhetoric.

This kind of talk is very common in middle eastern cultures, both Arab and Sephardic Jews.

As you might know, prominent Muslims have begun to question the Holocaust stories. Here is a recent interview from Iran's largest newspaper, the Tehran Times entitled "Holocaust supporters shun rational discussion and debate: Paul Fromm", of Paul Fromm, the director of the Canadian Association for Free Expression (CAFE), who believes that those who support the Holocaust do not tolerate any rational discussion of the subject and have turned the Holocaust into a religion.

Source: http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=12/26/2005&Cat=2&Num=011

Sincerely,

Jill Henry