Williams and Carey on Christmas

Why doesn't Sam Morris do as Shabina Begum did?

*Where on earth are girls wearing "burkhas"? A lot of Muslim girls wear hijabs (headscarves), and a few, as far as I know all at Islamic schools, cover their faces as well. Burqa (not burkha, take note) refers to neither or these, but to the all-covering veil/coat worn by some Afghan and Pakistani women, and to a particular type of black veil worn by women in the Gulf region. Women who cover their faces here call their veils niqab. Come on Mr (sorry, "Lord") Carey, brush up on your facts before opening your mouth or putting pen to paper.*

Most people; even educated ones, don't really know the difference between a *burqa* and *hijab, etc.

I blame John Simpson.

I think he's just a victim of the power of the media.

Rowan Williams asks:
"If you take the Christian faith out of British identity, what have you got left?"

hmmmmmmmmm... A society is which Christianity is an anachronistic footnote and people celebrate Christian festivals with scant regard for their religious significance. Pretty much what you see in Britain today and probably the most offensive thing about this time of year. But how far can one complain about the co-opting of a festival that itself was co-opted?

I'm not one bit surprised by Lord Carey's comments. Unfortunately, his thinking is closer to that of Islamophobics in this country, you only have to see his contributions to the debate on the religious hate crime in the House of Lords to see what I mean.

Rowan Williams on the other hand, does see things they way they really are without any contamination from bigotry: That the authorities are using other religions as an excuse to remove Christmas from the public sphere.

As has been said about a million times, Muslims are not opposed to Christmas -why would we be? It makes no sense. But of course, the Daily Express, the Telegraph and other Islamophobic media in this country would love to see people believe otherwise.

Don't Muslims have a problem with nativity scenes though, because they have a problem with visual representations of any Muslim prophets (including Jesus)?

Interesting. Here in the USA Muslim and Jewish groups have come out FOR Christmas. There is a move in Western society to divorce faith from all areas of our lives. People of faith, from no matter what background, need to battle these secular extremists or we will all loose out.

George,

Correct, muslims do not agree with visual representations of Prophets (peace be upon them all).

As it is obvious, new religions and superstitions are easily borne out of images/statues. Also physical appearance can be a veil or distraction from guidance. Cos pathetic humans are too weak.

And all the prescriptions of the Sharia'h (e.g. prohibition of images) are there to protect pathetic man, or shall I say the weakest of us. That is the whole point of protocols or laws in general, to protect the weakest and less "capable".

However, and ironically it is worth nothing that the Prophets, and to point out in particular Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) considered himself as the weakest before God, hence he followed the Koranic guidance ("meant for the weakest"), and thereby he became the Highest.

So, he is teaching us something - that - we are all (equally) weak. Some people's weakness have just been covered up by Allah's Grace. Sorry to go off on that tangent.

Anyhow, coming back to the issue:
There are specific issues which muslims have a problem with, but people celebrating Christmas is not one of them. I personally don't celebrate, I am not interested or even remotely excited about it. But I am not offended by anyone's celebration of christmas, and I still haven't met any muslim todate who is.

I personally have an issue with christmas - in that it is being used to manipulate people to unleash their consumerist potential. I was at a mall last night and it was quite "embarassing" seeing the spending pattern of people and what they were actually buying - all in the name of Christmas. I asked some guy at a stall how his sales was going, and he told me that it was going well and that he couldn't understand why people were buying -in such quantities - what he was selling. He was selling some gimmicky item which I don't even know how to describe.

If anything at all, muslims with business are not offended by christmas at all. Because they make more money in Christmas.

I agree with Saggal, the secular fundamentalist are using Islam as an excuse to remove every traces of religion from our institutions.

Just as Christian fundamentatlists have hijacked the US agenda, the secular fundamentalists have captured the UK.

I know we keep hearing that we are a secular democracy, where is it, I can't see it?
The UK is a Christian country whether people practice the religion or not is a different matter.

The sentiments of the people and the government ministries (not to talk of the queen) are in favour of christian traditions, morals and ideals. And there is no harm in that. And muslims are not offended.

PS: If UK (or any European country) was secular there would be no public holidays , no decorations on the streets for Christmas or holiday for Easter, etc. Or you could say there will be public holiday for every religious festival.

There's too many fallacies here to spin one's head out of its position.

From GC: *Don't Muslims have a problem with nativity scenes though, because they have a problem with visual representations of any Muslim prophets (including Jesus)?*

Well, we disagree with the acts themselves and the ideas behind them, but we don't object when non-Muslims who do not share our beliefs and objections do these things in their own country. That is why Muslims abstain from the relgious aspects of non-Muslim celebrations (Christmas plays and that sort of thing, to say nothing of the actual worship). But we don't ask others not to practice their religion to avoid offending us.

George Carty,

"Don't Muslims have a problem with nativity scenes though, because they have a problem with visual representations of any Muslim prophets (including Jesus)?"

My problem with the Nativity scence is that everyone in it looks like a Saudi. I just think they have way too much influence in America.

Please laugh it was a joke.

Whatever you call it, there's no way they should ban crosses but allow hijabs. They should allow crosses and headscarfs, but not jilbabs and silly niqabs.

Pickler,

If they ban muslim hijab, they should ban nuns from wearing their "hijabs" too.

They should also ban men from wearing hats, and perhaps baggy trousers (muslim men tend to wear loose fitting trousers), long shirts, jewelleries with religious connotations, sandals, socks, whatelse... there are many things that people actually wear to fulfil religious requirements.

Are you saying all of these should be banned?

Well, if the law bans it. We'll just have to live with it, but it doesn't make sense to me.

It is really stupid to ban any kind of religious wear in schools.

The only exception for that would be something that covers your entire face (whatever they are called). That would be entirely for security/identification reasons.

Anonymous - I was talking about schools. Adults can wear what they like within reason. However, I'd ban niqabs/burkhas for the same reason I'd other kinds of face covering. You need to be able to identify people.

Old pickler.

Hey, what about the rights of people who prefer to be "anonymous" :(

Obviously - if there is a need to identify people, then people need to make their face visible. This is important for many reasons having to do with ways in which the society operates.

But it is worth noting this:

If the concerns for banning niqab/burqah are to do with social technicalities, I think that is not so bad - in principle. Although it can still be perceived as a collective punishment for the (potential) crimes of a few.

However, if it has do with superficialities such as saying it just doesn't look right in this society, or it just does fit with a western way of life, now this is very problematic.

As Sheikh Nuh mentioned in that audio file posted, the world is a very multicultural place (including the UK) and people need to wake up to that reality - a reality which is as old as the world itself.

Hence, if such things as niqabs/burkhas are to be banned in a multicultural society, they better be banned on a "technical" basis, not on the basis of cultural comparisons.

You would think any "law/ban" ought to have some sort of serious basis (?) whereby it is at least preceded by, (if not interpretations of some divine scripture), "intellectual" analysis of the social implications - for and against - implementing such a law/ban.

A law proposed to ban human expression is not to be taken lightly, not something that should come into effect simply on the basis of sentiments. That will be a cavalier attitude to have towards the idea of "law making".

So, for example if the French parliament came forward and gave technical reasons as to why they are banning hijab in schools, that could have sounded more "sensible" (i.e. in principle). Rather, they tell us that it is because they do not want religion is schools. When has religion in school ever been a problem, except that it has helped to reinforce morals in our kids? How much religion are in these hiphop schools anyway?

See, they are stupid law makers, and these are the people supposed to guide the nation.

In anycase, if the ludicrous basis or silly rationale of such laws/bans are eventually accepted and a law is enacted, regrettably people must still follow it. Because social order is preferable to civil disturbance.

People would have to wait until a more enlightened bunch comes into government to overturn those laws. And they don't just wait, they have to take part in the process that brings about such people into power. No doubt, this starts with rectifying one's own mind, beliefs and principles. Ultimately, the politicians are afterall common people like us.

Also, Old pickler, as for schools, islamically kids don't have to wear hijab or any special covering until they become "adults". Ofcourse, I say that with caution because child pornography is on the rise, and children are now also being exploited for their body as well.

Kids are under the care of their parents/guardian, and their choices are "limited" (naturally!). The parent has full responsibility within the law to prescribe for their child what to wear and what not to wear, and to raise the child with principles which they see as best.
Indeed, if a parent is asking their child to wear niqab/burqa out of fanaticism where there is no technical/religious context for it, then social services may intervene on a case by case basis - this will be very sensitive, they would probably require the help of an Imam; I don't think the solution is to ban everybody from wearing it.

As for adults. Need I say, that adults can wear what they like.

What about the "non-Muslims feel queasy around niqabis" argument? I mention it because I experienced that feeling myself, in a shop! It was what got me reading Muslim blogs in the first place...

Hi George,

It is all too human to "feel queasy" about something unfamiliar. That should not be a problem.

I think the problem is when people move straight from "feeling queasy" to sweeping condemnation and utlimately to enacting laws to ban those things they feel queasy about.

People need to make an effort to scratch the surface a bit to see the substance behind many of the realities that meets our eyes. Otherwise, people will never live together. There will perpetual anger, wars and chaos. Which is no good.

*What about the "non-Muslims feel queasy around niqabis" argument? I mention it because I experienced that feeling myself, in a shop!*

I have too. I get reminded of either ninjas or bank robbers for some reason. This applies to all face coverings btw, not just Muslim ones.

Public schools have to be able to indentify people who come through their doors. Also they need to ID people for attendance. There are many, many reasons why face coverings are a bad idea in that sense.

George wrote: "What about the 'non-Muslims feel queasy around niqabis' argument?"

That's your problem, not ours. If you're feeling "queasy," then you're still suffering from xenophobia. My advice is for you to take two aspirin and go live in another culture that's completely foreign to you for a little while, so you can see how some of the rest of humanity lives.

What about the "non-Muslims feel queasy around niqabis" argument?

The queasiness of strangers is not itself a good reason to modulate the practice of ones faith. The problem with that argument is why stop at niqab, I know people who feel queasy about hijab and at least one old pickler that takes issue with jilbab. I know that some of my fellow travelers on the tube would feel a whole lot less queasy if I were to invest in one of [these](http://www.gillette.com/products/grooming_men.asp); According to the adverts, this will make strange women so un-queasy that they will want to rub their faces up against mine. Then there are those people who feel queasy about male circumcision (some even calling it ritualised child abuse) and our method of slaughter.

I accept that there is a practical issue about security and identification that relates to niqab, but like any practical problem, there is a practical solution if people are serious about finding one. I do think Muslims could do more to allay people’s fears and misconceptions, but this has to be a two-way process. You certainly shouldn’t be derided for feeling the way you did in that shop. By frequenting blogs such as this, you’ve at least shown a willingness to engage and try to understand, which is to be respected. That woman you saw in the shop could have been my own sister who I can assure you is a very bright and thoughtful woman with a rich and interesting life who, of her own volition, chooses to dress that way as an act of submission to God. I recommend this [book](http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0593054415/qid=1135310604/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/202-3401047-0984640).

What about the "non-Muslims feel queasy around niqabis" argument?

The queasiness of strangers is not itself a good reason to modulate the practice of ones faith. The problem with that argument is why stop at niqab, I know people who feel queasy about hijab and at least one old pickler that takes issue with jilbab. I know that some of my fellow travelers on the tube would feel a whole lot less queasy if I were to invest in one of [these](http://www.gillette.com/products/grooming_men.asp); According to the adverts, this will make strange women so un-queasy that they will want to rub their faces up against mine. Then there are those people who feel queasy about male circumcision (some even calling it ritualised child abuse) and our method of slaughter.

I accept that there is a practical issue about security and identification that relates to niqab, but like any practical problem, there is a practical solution if people are serious about finding one. I do think Muslims could do more to allay people’s fears and misconceptions, but this has to be a two-way process. You certainly shouldn’t be derided for feeling the way you did in that shop. By frequenting blogs such as this, you’ve at least shown a willingness to engage and try to understand, which is to be respected. That woman you saw in the shop could have been my own sister who I can assure you is a very bright and thoughtful woman with a rich and interesting life who, of her own volition, chooses to dress that way as an act of submission to God. I recommend this [book](http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0593054415/qid=1135310604/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/202-3401047-0984640).

The queasiness of strangers is not itself a good reason to modulate the practice of ones faith. The problem with that argument is why stop at niqab, I know people who feel queasy about hijab and at least one old pickler that takes issue with jilbab.

I suspect one factor that may have had an effect is that where I live (Durham) there are hardly any Muslims - it is unusual to see a hijabi, never mind a niqabi!

Although I'm not even sure whether hijab and/or jilbab are a good idea in the West - most non-Muslim women I see are so unfeminine in their appearance that a jilbabi would look stunningly beautiful in comparison (I certainly felt that once, when I saw one in my university library).

You certainly shouldn’t be derided for feeling the way you did in that shop. By frequenting blogs such as this, you’ve at least shown a willingness to engage and try to understand, which is to be respected.

Yes, after the event I felt terribly guilty. It was an unconscious, visceral reaction. Perhaps I find it difficult to relate to someone if I can't see their face.

Well said Atticus. As for male circumcision, only a hemophiliac or an uninformed idiot would object to it. We have some scam artists in the States who are going into the "reconstructive" surgery business.

Below text is from the
Islington Gazette.

MUSLIMS are protesting at the Islington Council's "moronic anti-Christian purge" of Christmas.

The council declined to use the name "Christmas lights" this year - insisting on calling them "festive lights" instead.

In Newington Green there was an "inter-faith Celebration of Light" ceremony. Even many Islington schools now refer to the Christmas holiday as "the winter festival".

But Abuse Munassir, of the Al Nehar Mosque in Caledonian Road, King's Cross, said: "Blaming Christian traditions for being offensive to Islam is ridiculous and completely untrue.

"This practice is absolute madness. Islington's councillors must wake up and strive to create harmony and diversity rather than destroying it."

Mr Munassir added: "My younger Islamic community members are considering marching on Islington Town Hall in a peaceful protest against this anti-Christian moronic purge.

*Well said Atticus. As for male circumcision, only a hemophiliac or an uninformed idiot would object to it. *

Well since its preformed on the vast majority of births in the United States I couldn't see anyone here really objecting to it.

About the "queasey" thing, its not just *niqab* with me (and most people), its anything thats extremely different from the norm. So I don't think its really xenephobia.

i.e. goths with tons of white face paint and pierceings on every part of their body also make me feel this way, to a much greater extent than a *niqabi* would.

But you can't tell adults what kind of clothes they want to wear in public just because you find it strange. So its really a non-issue.

most non-Muslim women I see are so unfeminine in their appearance that a jilbabi would look stunningly beautiful in comparison

What a sexist remark. Don't you think you should join the 21st century.

Assalaamu alaikum,

I find it ironic that in the West, there's a big uproar about whether to use the word "Christmas" to describe Chrstmas.

Yet I'm sitting here in Kuwait and I can't turn around without seeing advertisements for Christmas stuff (which specifically say "Christmas"), or Christmas trees and decorations and sweets at the supermarket, or the "Merry Christmas" headline on the front page of my newspaper. Or the front page interview with the Kuwaiti pastor of one of the Christian churches.

===================

I don't care if Christians want to wear crosses, but I do want to point out that it's not the same as a Muslim woman wearing hijab. A hijab is covering a part of the body that we believe must be covered, but a cross is an optional accessory that's not required of Christians, as far as I know.

==================

Atticus, have you read "from My Sisters' Lips"? I'd like to get it, insha'allah.

===================

George, I appreciate your honesty and I appreciate your response to that feeling - trying to learn more about Muslims. You don't have to agree with us in the end, but at least you'll base your opinions on reality and not the usual stereotypes.

=================

Even in those Muslim countries where a lot of women wear niqab, they are required to remove them for photo IDs and if they're requested for official identification. In reality, if someone needs to see your face (when crossing a border, for example), they have women staff members to handle women travellers. And the photo shops have women photographers to photograph women. So the faces show on the ID cards, but women rarely have to actually uncover their faces.

OP: What a sexist remark.

Well, to be honest, the other side of my brain was screaming "How dare you think like that, you misogynistic creep!"

OP: Don't you think you should join the 21st century.

Could you explain to me logically why modest dress is an anachronism?

I wonder if the anti-modesty prejudice of modern Western society is partially because of the association of modesty with the genuinely oppressive women's clothing of the Victorian era?

That's your problem, not ours. If you're feeling "queasy," then you're still suffering from xenophobia. My advice is for you to take two aspirin and go live in another culture that's completely foreign to you for a little while, so you can see how some of the rest of humanity lives.

Or as my research supervisor once mentioned, even just live in London for a while - as it's a lot more multicultural than north-east England. I think the rents would be problem though...

Catching up on old comments, George? ;)