In response to the civil union in the Netherlands involving a man and two women, Mad Mel wonders where all this liberalisation is leading us:
[Charles] Krauthammer, however, sees all these developments merely as the symptom rather than the cause of the breakdown of marriage. As he says, marriage has certainly imploded from within. Some causes: the culture of radical individualism, breakdown of religious and moral norms, consumerism, rise of therapy culture, sexual revolution, erosion of stigma attached to out of wedlock births, and so on. But I think this process is more complex than he suggests. Both causes and symptoms are inextricably fused so that they all reinforce each other. The more alternative lifestyles become ordained as mainstream, with dissidents treated as social pariahs if they try to uphold traditional moral norms, the more those moral norms are undermined.
So now anything goes – and our society is steadily going, as a result. Polyandry, polyamory, polygamy, polymorphism – can paedophilia, necrophilia and bestiality be far behind?
So polygamy between consenting adult men and women is like paedophilia and bestiality now, is it?
Poor girl,
And the only people getting married are the Muslims and the Hindus probably. It seems like we do stand to teach the disbelievers something.
Krauthammer(who literally is an armchair neocon) doesnt have a problem with the act itself, just with the state recognition of it.
Krauthammer(who literally is an armchair neocon)
Are you being ironic?
What other type of neo-con is there?
A neo-con who joins the military and fights in wars he wants fought?
I don't think those exist.
I think the intended irony was in reference to Krauthammer's disability (he is paraplegic) - the remark appears to be in somewhat poor taste, and certainly not how a Muslim should think of our fellow beings. However, (donning the hat of a moral relativist for a minute) it is no worse (and probably better) than most of the fascism spouted by the neo-imperialists aka the neo-cons.
Yes.
Abu Abdur Rahman,
You probably hear a lot more fascism from A-list Imams than you do from efete neo-cons.
If memory serves these were the same "neo-imperialist, neo-cons" who supported the bombing of Serbia to reverse the ethnic cleansing of Muslims from Bosnia and Kosovo. I noble effort and I can’t imagine you were terribly excercised over the West’s medeling into a country’s internal affairs then. The reason why many of these same neo-cons including the wheelchair bound Krauthammer supported the same treatment of Iraq was that many saw the same evil mirrored in Saddams Iraq. Deplorable as Saddam's rule might be — gassing Kurds, feeding folks feet-first into industrial shredders, etc. —you guys seem to believe that it was strictly an internal matter for the Iraqi people.
Asma Bint Jahiliyah,
"The reason why many of these same neo-cons including the wheelchair bound Krauthammer supported the same treatment of Iraq was that many saw the same evil mirrored in Saddams Iraq."
Err, plan B works evertime.
Shamil,
Man that was a bad one.
Tut, tut Asma bint munfafiq, the neocons were dead against the bombing of Serbia. I realize that you're not particularly known for your truthiness, but that was pathetic.
Nobody in their right mind believes the neocons give a damn for the people of Iraq. Krauthammer belongs behind bars.
You're wrong DrM, the neocons supported the bombing of Serbia. Some opponents of the neocons suggested that the neocons supported the Kosovo intervention because it might draw Muslim eyes away from Palestine...
George Carty,
There you go with your nuance. Its sickening. Is it true that Fukiyama defected? He is now a realist? Too bad the neocon elite have lost their steam.
You gotta give me your opinion on those who would argue that Iraqis are, were, could have been thirsty for democracy but the Muslims on the streets of European capitals are not? What is the difference between these Muslim peoples except to say that many of the Muslims in Europe today, espeically the Turks (I have my misgivings about their religiosity) and the Algerians or North Africans come from already very Westernized countries of the Muslim world. Is that an argument that contradicts itself in anyway?
You gotta give me your opinion on those who would argue that Iraqis are, were, could have been thirsty for democracy but the Muslims on the streets of European capitals are not? What is the difference between these Muslim peoples except to say that many of the Muslims in Europe today, espeically the Turks (I have my misgivings about their religiosity) and the Algerians or North Africans come from already very Westernized countries of the Muslim world. Is that an argument that contradicts itself in anyway?
That might just be the best point you've ever made.
The answer is of course that people like Melanie Phillips are not providing a genuine discourse. They are providing misinformation so people will think the way they want them to. Such a tactic is bound to result in contradictions. Another example is how Mad Mel seeks to promote traditional British culture but at the same time in other articles attacks British culture for being innately anti-semitic.
I suspect the Muslim riots in France, the Ahmedinejad election victory in Iran, and the Hamas election victory in Palestine have dealt a one-two-three punch to the idea that Muslims are thirsty for western secular democracy.
Shamil,
"That might just be the best point you've ever made."
I am both insulted and flattered since I make so many points about so many things.
It is a rather disingenuous discourse. On the one hand, you cant immigrate anymore Muslims into Europeans or Western countries because they undermine freedom and democracy, but you must send your best and brightest to fight for it in these Muslim countries because the human spirit desires it so much.
It never made sense to me which is why I believe that most people speak to their agenda.
George Carty,
"I suspect the Muslim riots in France, the Ahmedinejad election victory in Iran, and the Hamas election victory in Palestine have dealt a one-two-three punch to the idea that Muslims are thirsty for western secular democracy."
There was nothing more Western, secular, or democratic than for the Muslims to riot in France. If people didnt view everything violent with Islam and Muslims, they would see that it is their traditions but with darker and swarthier faces.
In regard to the elections of Hamas, I would imagine that it is more complex than what you have reduced it to. Remeber "Islamist" dont vote or they do vote when they stand to win. This may call into questions their preference for tradition since it can be compromised for modern political convinience. Isnt compromising of tradition what the Westerners want for Muslims?
George, I remember clearly people like Bill Kristol(publisher of the neocon toilet paper "the weekly standard")being against the bombing of Serbia. The few in the movement that were for it saw it as a show of force by the US deep in the heart of Europe, and also to say "hi" to the Russians and establish military bases in the region.
DrM, it was Justin Raimondo who claimed that neocons supported the Kosovo war to divert Muslim attention from Palestine. I don't think neoconservatives are united - some want total American supremacy, while others are Islam-haters above all and willing to ally with (for example) Russia to that end...
George, Raimondo is totally offbase on Serbia. He does some good work but his pro-Milocovic writings were a disgrace, and one of the reasons I deeply distrust many on the left, some of whom deny Milosovic's atrocities.
But you are correct that neocons arent united.
DrM, Raimondo is not a leftist but a right-wing libertarian. I suspect he is more anti-Clinton than pro-Milosevic.
Yeah I know Raimondo is a right wing libertarian, I should have made that clear in my previous post.
Yusuf,
"The more alternative lifestyles become ordained as mainstream, with dissidents treated as social pariahs if they try to uphold traditional moral norms, the more those moral norms are undermined."
No the dissidents are seen as Islamist who want to impose Sharia on Europe and turn the natives into dhimmis. Ha Ha Ha...