Which part is untrue?

“Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should treat your women well. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - except if they commit a manifest rebellion.” And what is a rebellion except refusal to obey a lawful authority? “If they do, then refuse to share their beds and hit them without indecent violence.” “Indecent violence” still gives quite a bit of leeway to the man’s judgment, however. Decent violence covers a multitude of sins- as does “advice not to bruise one’s wife if one hits her, not to hit her on the face, and to only try to awaken her conscience”. “Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer.” Which is the purpose- to inculcate obedience to god-given authority.

The fact remains: sura 4 is addressed to men and says what they are to expect and require of “their” women. It says that men are “superior” to women and have power over them. The fact that an absolute statement like this is unjust and untrue is quite enough to discredit it, without the assorted more-or-less violent interpretations by various muslims.

“I’m sorry you consider some people’s culture as representing Islam - I don’t describe Orthodox Christianity as abhorrent just because the abuse rate of women is so high in that church - as it certainly is.” Why not- except that you’d have to apply the same standards to your own beliefs? If people justify their behaviour from their religion it’s pretty good evidence that their religion permits or encourages such behaviour- muslim or christian.

The hadith in Muslim states that the Prophet (pbuh) in his Farewell Pilgrimage said: “Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should treat your women well. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - except if they commit a manifest rebellion. If they do, then refuse to share their beds and hit them without indecent violence. Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over them is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision.”

Explicitly in the hadith is advice not to bruise one’s wife if one hits her, not to hit her on the face, and to only try to awaken her conscience - followed by the statement by his wife that he never hit them.

I’m sorry you consider some people’s culture as representing Islam - I don’t describe Orthodox Christianity as abhorrent just because the abuse rate of women is so high in that church - as it certainly is.

let me add one last hadith in commentary, and a few links, then you can add your thoughts witout referring to the text: 279. Iyas ibn ‘Abdullah ibn Abi Dhubab reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “Do not beat the female slaves of Allah.” Then ‘Umar came to the Prophet and said, “The women have become bold towards their husbands,” and so he made an allowance to beat them. Then many women surrounded the family of the Messenger of Allah to complain about their husbands. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “The people of the household of Muhammad have surrounded by many women who are complaining about their husbands. Those men are not among the best of you.”

SunniPath on ‘Hadith from Riyadh-us-Salihin on Treating Women well’

http://www.sunnipath.com/Resou.....P0034.aspx

Answering-Christianity (a muslim apologia page) on Qur’anic verse 4:34:

http://www.answering-christian.....n_4_34.htm

Please, Thersites, try to maintain some ‘good faith’ by actually reading and responding to the substance of what is written.

“the hadith are the source of establishing the Qu’ran” So, the evidence for what god said is what other people said Mohammed said was what god said.

Where have I told you how to interpret the quran? I merely pointed out that other muslims interpret the quran in a different way to you and you agree, although it seems you despise them. No doubt the contempt is reciprocated. The fact remains, they are every bit as muslim as you are and their interpretation is every bit as muslim as yours.

None of the hadith above actually “denounce” muslims who interpret 4:34 as entitling them to beat their wives. They merely show that Mohammed himself did not need to beat his wives to control them. “The best amongst you are those who are best to their families, and I am the best amongst you to my family.” does not actually forbid beating- after all, men are superior in reason so, if they beat, obviously they know best and are doing what is best for their family. Mohammed himself, as he told us, had many qualities others lack, so we cannot all equal him in forbearance.

where have I “proved”- or even implied- “muslim malignity”? I have merely pointed out what the quran says and what muslims infer from it. If you think that their interpretation is malignant, that is not my fault. As many muslims are illiterate and not many muslims understand arabic- let alone quranic arabic- and are discouraged from reading translations, what most muslims know of the quran is what they have heard recited in a mosque and what they have been told it says by someone who says they know what it says. It is perfectly possible to quote a book you haven’t read, actually. Everyone who uses the english language quotes Shakespeare every day without needing to have read him. As to whether the interpretation I cite is “deviant” or “majority”, the first is entirely a matter of muslim opinion and there is no reason for me to suppose your interpretation is not actually the deviant one. As for a majority, the best you can come up with is that it might be translated as “hit” rather than “beat” without ever saying why the difference between the two is sufficiently big to count as an interpretation rather than a quibble, so it looks as though a majority of interpreters- including you- read it as permitting salutary discipline to enforce female obedience, doesn’t it?

secondly, because the Prophet clearly established the meanings of the legal statements, and his verdicts are legally binding on all muslims. That you are ignorant of this is not surprising, that you advertise that ignorance and claim to tell me how to interpret the Qur’an is arrogance. You may kindly go back to wrapping fish and chips in newspaper, or whatever task your betters find for you.

You claim that most muslims haven’t read the Qur’an, but use it as justification for their acts. Quite smart, people quoting a book that they haven’t read - and you’re obviously clever enough to use google and quote functions - why don’t you go deeper with your proofs of muslim malignity?

That there are muslims who justify beating their wives or others is beyond dispute, they are repulsive to me, and denounced by the Prophet (the hadith above, and many others) as well as numerous classical and modern scholars.

You choose a deviant interpretation and reading, and defend your reading by insisting that it’s the majority view - well, apparently a majority of Americans believe that Iraq played a role in 9/11 and that WMDs have been found there. Do tell, facts are based on democratic votes?

When I drop by England, perhaps you can make some coffee for me, or run your English flag around - it’s charming how your educational system produces malignant morons who can grammatically parse a sentence but not follow an argument.

Surah 4: women are stronger than men? there’s a suggestion of beating? “

“A suggestion of beating”? Permission- advice- perhaps even an order- to beat. The later “suggestion” is that it be only a light beating. It’s also an absolute statement Not, as it should more accurately be: “On average men tend to be stronger than women and for socioecononimic reasons tend to earn more money.” but “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.”

“Seems to me you’re taking a verse, and reading it precisely in the way that some (not all) muslims do, misogynistically. ” Or the way many muslims do- as meaning exactly what it says.

“The statement of the Qur’an that men are given more strength than women would seem to be borne out by biology and the fact that the world’s armies and strongmen are… men.” Can a strongman or a milkman be anything else? Not all the world’s armies either. So, again, a comparative statement is made an absolute.

“And given that the hadith of the Prophet, narrated by Aishah, says that he never beat any one of them…” Very kind of him. A decent hypocrisy: Do as I say, not as I do, and- for once- the example is morally superior to the word. “The best amongst you are those who are best to their families, and I am the best amongst you to my family.” However, hadith come a long way below the quran as justification, so it’s not much help, is it?

“Please do write and tell us what you think of muslims without referencing Islam’s texts, the Qur’an and hadith: scholarship might not be an important thing in the op-ed world you preach in, but muslims tend to take texts more seriously.” Preach? Come on now. I leave preaching to believers. The reason I cite islamic texts to explain muslims’ behaviour is that muslims use them to justify or explain their behaviour. When they stop I’ll stop. As for scholarship, I make no claim to islamic scholarship. I’ve merely read the quran, which puts me ahead of most muslims.

It is reported that al-Baqir remarked to him, “Are you the one who changes the deen of my grandfather and his hadiths by analogy?” Abu Hanifa replied, “I seek refuge with Allah!”

Muhammad (al-Baqir) said, “You have changed it. Abu Hanifa said, “Sit in your place as is your right until I sit by my right. I respect you as your grandfather, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was respected by his Companions when he was alive.” He sat.

Then Abu Hanifa knelt before him and said, “I will present you with three things to answer. Who is weaker: a man of woman?”

“A woman,” he (al-Baqir) replied. Abu Hanifa then asked; “What is the share of a woman?”

“A man has two shares and a woman one,” he replied. Abu Hanifa said, “This is the statement of your grandfather. If I had changed the deen of your grandfather, by analogy a man would have one share and a woman two because the woman is weaker than the man.”

Then he asked, “Which is better: the prayer or fasting?” “The prayer,” al-Baqir replied. He said, “This is the statement of your grandfather. If I had changed the deen of your grandfather, my analogy would be that, because the prayer is better, when a woman is free of menstruation she should be commanded to make up the prayer and not make up the fast.”

Then he asked, “Which is more impure: urine or sperm?” “Urine is more impure,” he replied. He said, “If I had changed the deen of your grandfather by analogy, I would have ordered a ghusl for urine and wudu’ for sperm. I seek refuge with Allah from changing the deen of your grandfather by analogy.” Muhammad rose and embraced him and kissed his face to honour him.

[source: The Four Imams, by Muhammad Abu Zahra]

004.034 YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Surah 4: women are stronger than men? there’s a suggestion of beating?

Seems to me you’re taking a verse, and reading it precisely in the way that some (not all) muslims do, misogynistically.

The statement of the Qur’an that men are given more strength than women would seem to be borne out by biology and the fact that the world’s armies and strongmen are… men. And given that the hadith of the Prophet, narrated by Aishah, says that he never beat any one of them… “The best amongst you are those who are best to their families, and I am the best amongst you to my family.”

Please do write and tell us what you think of muslims without referencing Islam’s texts, the Qur’an and hadith: scholarship might not be an important thing in the op-ed world you preach in, but muslims tend to take texts more seriously.

How can anybody be serious about that?

A surprising amount of sense has crept into the debates here in my absence.