The BBC is commonly accused of being biased against Israel and of being unwilling to call terrorists what they are, but an interview with a representative of the Muslim Brotherhood on yesterday's Today programme on Radio 4 showed that Israel is as likely to benefit from the BBC's biases as anyone else. The interviewee was Dr Hazem Farooq Mansour, a Muslim Brotherhood MP in Egypt, and it was obvious to anyone listening that his English was not very good - so bad that the BBC should have found someone else or sent an interpreter - and the presenter used this to put words in his mouth time and again.
Here is a rough transcript:
P: Here in Cairo, I'm joined by Mr Hazem Farooq Mansour, who is a member of Parliament on behalf of the Muslim Brotherhood, an organisation in the opposition here fiercely opposed by president Mubarak's government; it in turn, of course, does not like the way [Mubarak] has handled the Egyptian position in the last few years. I want to explore that position with you, Dr Mansour, but to ask you first of all this question: if some kind of new pattern in the Middle East is going to evolve from this fighting, what precisely is it that people on your part of the spectrum want to see?
M: Uh first of all we uh ... not as Miss Condi Rice said that the new Middle East will be delivered from uh through a constructive [cues?], but as we see now through destructive [cues?]. We want to see a new Middle East have its own developmental project, have its own people opinions respectful, have a new regimes respect their people, new regimes not tyrannical regimes as we see/say [not sure what he meant], regimes not bow before the enemies, to have their seats safely for the ...
P: But you see, you argue that there should be respect, now it's clear that that respect does not extend to Israel. Hezbollah began this series of exchanges by firing rockets into Israel, by kidnapping soldiers, that's what has led to this fighting. Now, does your vision of the ME include a respect for the right of Israelis to live securely behind their own borders or not?
M: First of all, Israel has been implanted in our region since 1948, implanted forcedly, implanted in our region ...
P: Are you saying that it doesn't have a right to be there? This is the argument.
M: Yes sir.
P: You are? You don't wish it to be there?
M: Yes.
P: You want it to be removed?
M: Yes.
P: You see, in those circumstances, Israel's right to exist, which is underwritten by the United Nations, which is supported by the international community, whatever they may think about the fighting at the moment, its right to exist behind secure borders is something which the world in general supports, and if they hear you saying, and people who support the Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbollah, "Israel should be obliterated, if necessary by killing its people", why should they accept that?
M: Uh, first of all we, I will repeat my words again (P: Yes), the Zionist country has been implanted in our region ... I speak about those people who arrived, who came from Europe and the United States and west, east Europe to Palestine since one nine uh eleven, since Mr Balfour say uh ...
P: Indeed, the Balfour Declaration, but do you believe, I just want to get this absolutely clear, you believe it is right to wage war against Israel until Jews are driven out of the Middle East? It's as simple and crude as that.
M: You are in front of a, uh uh uh uh oppressive uh occupation, in front of uh troops, great troops, uh, oppressive ...
P: But you see, Israel argues that it's defending itself, and when people listen to you saying "we want to get rid of Jews from Europe (sic) if necessary by war", then Israel's defence is a very natural one; there is no person on the face of the planet who would not give them the right that's been underwritten by the international community to be there safely behind borders who would not fight to defend those borders.
M: Is killing uh helpless women in Gaza, kids playing football in the Gaza streets ...
P: Indeed, there's an argument about Israeli policy in the occupied territories, of course, which the world argues about the whole time; there's an argument about this fighting, as to whether the response is justified and proportional. These are perfectly proper political arguments. But you see, you're saying "we do not accept the right of Israel to exist". Now, most Arab governments, not all, have long since moved from that position and have said "we should have a ME in which there is a secure and safe Israel that lives at peace with its neighbours, including the Palestinians in a separate state. Now, do you accept that as a legitimate objective, or not, because it appears that you don't.
M: How come uh sir, to live, to let Israel live safe within our land, within our region? How come to Israel to live safe uh while it reject the Hamas examplery elected government?
P: But even if it did accept Hamas, you're saying you still want them removed?
M: Uh, yah. I mean (?) that not today, but really will come the day that Israel will be, uh, get rid of it from this region. Jewish can live with us as long years ago ...
P: OK, well that could not be clearer, and people will have heard it with interest. Dr Hazem Farooq Mansour, thank you very much indeed.
I've edited this quite a bit to take out some of Dr Mansour's hesitations and uh-uh utterances, but you can listen to it here for up to seven days. What Dr Mansour really thought of Hizbullah launching rocket attacks into northern Israel we never really found out, because practically every time he started a sentence he was interrupted because the interviewer had no patience for long sentences of halting English.
As it happens, Dr Mansour articulated a commonly-held Arab and Muslim view: that Israel should not exist and that the people who lived there before, and their descendents, are the rightful occupants of the land. It may well be the case that Arabs outside Palestine and Muslims outside the region take a much harsher line on Palestine than many local Arabs, much as it is the case that many of Israel's most fanatical supporters are in the diaspora (and are sometimes not even Jewish), but the notion that Israel has no right to exist, and its removal is desirable even if it is not feasible in the short term, is probably the norm throughout the Muslim world. The interviewer acted as if this is somehow beyond the pale, and then proceeded to talk of obliterating Israel and driving out Jews, which have a whole different set of connotations from removing a state.
The fact is, Arabs want their land back - all of it. There are realists, but with regards to Palestine a fair number are not willing to accept derisory "peace plans" involving self-rule enclaves with Israeli control over who enters and leaves, even to other Arab countries. This is something I believe the west has never faced up to: that Israel is only interested in a "peace" in which they dominate. Of course, a lot of Muslims reject the idea that attacking civilians for its own sake is justified, and a lot of Lebanese are angry at Hizbullah for prompting the Israelis to destroy much of what they have built over the last few years, but a discussion between an English-speaker who speaks no Arabic and an Arab whose English is as poor as Dr Mansour's was never going to bring much of this out.
What Dr Mansour really thought of Hizbullah launching rocket attacks into northern Israel we never really found out
Oh, I think we can hazard a guess, don't you? Of course lots of Muslims think Israel should be obliterated. That is why Israel reacts as it does.
I think this guy's English was fine. It is his views that are repellent.
Salam ...
Our contention is that Israel be stripped of its sovereignty without killing or evicting any civilians - Jews or otherwise.
"The interviewer...proceeded to talk of obliterating Israel and driving out Jews, which have a whole different set of connotations from removing a state."
Except that one reason the state exists is that arabs drove out jews and told them to go there in the 1950s.
British people should understand this Arab sentiment. This country rails long and hard about a few thousand immigrants and the effect this will have on the local culture. Imagine being driven from your homes by millions of them, and then you have the Arab view on Israel.
Our contention is that Israel be stripped of its sovereignty without killing or evicting any civilians - Jews or otherwise.
Yeah, right.
Old Pimple,
You have some nerve considering what you have said on Pickled Politics. I am starting to think you suffer from some kind of personality disorder.
Thersites,
Except that one reason the state exists is that arabs drove out jews and told them to go there in the 1950s.
From where did they drive them out?? Hello!
Most of the Jews in IRAN - 'the heart of terrorism' - still refuse to go and live in Israel.
So, what are you talking about?
Please honour the intelligence of other people reading this blog, okay?
I hear most of the Jews in Israel speak with Europe and US accents. Even the Palestinians speak better Hebrew than most of these bomb throwing savages.
Now, let me give you an opportunity to clarify yourself, what exactly do you mean by the Arabs told them to go there is 1950s.
According to Prophecy, there is no doubt a lot of them would end up there, literally! And these are the Zionists, not the peace loving religious Jews.
So, where is the right of the 6 million or so Palestinians that were evicted from this so-called land of Israel at the time of formation of this illegal "Jewish" state. They should just go to hell??
Some examples: Morocco had 265000 jews in 1948. Now about 5500.
Iraq: about 150000, now about 35.
Egypt: 75000, less than 100.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/
Thersites,
In the same way, you need to now go away and get the figures for Russia, Europe, USA, and other perhaps other western countries.
Let us see who forms the bulk of people on this religious holiday resort called Israel.
It would also be a good idea if you compare how many Palestinians were told to leave their homeland in order for these nice people from Russia, USA and yonder to bring forth the Kingdom of their Chosen Race of Israel.
As you would know (and it doesn't matter if you don't), most of the Jews of the Arab countries you listed above live together with their local population in peace, a peace that can only be the envy of most countries. Never has a suicide bomber combusted at their door step. And in general, the migration of these people wasn't in order to flee persecution. It was an economic migration. Most of them are "here" in Los Angeles making lots of money.
You see, you are pretty confused; or deliberately cunning.
Thersite,
Well those numbers dont actually tell you why they left. I am sure if you offered anyone in Morocco, Iraq or Egypt a change to live in a more prosperous countries that will cause a great migration too. Be serious.
BaT: In the early 1950s Israel was not a prosperous country. Persecution, confiscation of property, the odd hanging helped persuade them to leave.
Anonymous: I pointed out that a great many jews- in fact, the majority of jews in Israel now are these jews or their descendants- were from arab countries. I provided evidence to substantiate it. You'd rather talk of other topics. Now, then, what compensation do you propose these countries pay to the people they persecuted and expelled?
"most of the Jews of the Arab countries you listed above live together with their local population in peace, a peace that can only be the envy of most countries."
Even the most antisemitic people can probably put up with sharing a country with thirty five jews, where they might not be too keen on a hundred and fifty thousand.
" Never has a suicide bomber combusted at their door step."
Not exactly. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3035803.stm
What was the Arab 'pogrom' called? or the muslim version of the 'Holocaust'? What are the names of the villages of Jews systematically slaughtered, from the medieval ages on, by Muslims who accused them of 'killing their Lord'? inquiring minds want to know, and Thersites is well informed to tell us about how barbaric the arabs & 'moslems' are, while the humanistic europeans (and their still-fascist elements) only built death camps in Europe, South Africa (including a nice country called Rhodesia... not called that anymore, is it? Why are the black people there so pissed off?)
Hrm... objectivity is troubling. Please tell me, Thersites, where the arabs & muslims built gas chambers - I can't think of any place, but I'm sure you're better informed.
Thersites is quite right, of course. Israel is only now relatively prosperous because the Jews have worked hard and made it so.
The Arabs - who have the remaining 99.998% of the Middle East, including all the oil - would do well to take a leaf out of their book. A little more hard work and a little less jihad would do wonders for their economies.
Okay Thersites,
I think I am wasting my time here.
They say rationality (even logicality) is a subjective thing!
Maybe they are right.
Poor thing.
Prosperity?
Shall I inform you of the Absolute Greatest Losers?
It is those
Who expend their utmost (hard work)
In this world.
Then they thought
That they were prosperously perfecting manufactures
Koran
What a 'mistaken' thought they had; hence they lost.
A little more hard work and a little less jihad would do wonders for their economies.
It's like she's addicted to sounding stupid isn't it?
What jihads are going on in the arab world?
Only Hezbollah and the Palestinians are fighting an external non-muslim enemy.
Plus why would you think that war would make countries less prosperous? That wasn't the case with the British Empire.Indeed Israel has aquired valuable water sources and farming land from its conquests.
"I think I am wasting my time here. They say rationality (even logicality) is a subjective thing!
Maybe they are right."
Only subjectively, Anonymous, only subjectively. Just as objectively there was a suicide attack on a jewish centre in Casablanca on Saturday, 17 May, 2003. Subjectively, however, "Never has a suicide bomber combusted at their door step" is just as valid.
Dawud: The facts remain: jews were treated as second-class subjects by arab and muslim states. They may not have been as badly treated as in Europe, but that still leaves lots of room for bad treatment. The response of arab countries to the establishment of Israel was to take it out on their own jewish subjects, with the result that most of them upped and left for Israel. As for extermination of jews, the fact that arab countries, especially Syria and Egypt, welcomed and gave citizenship to nazis who'd taken part in the extermination suggests that it was as much incompetence as any othe r quality that preserved the arab-ruled jews.
Annoying thing reality, isn't it?
The amount of time Arabs spend bleating, moaning, demonstrating and shrieking about Israel, and the amount of money they spend funding weapons to Hezbollah and Hamas, could be better spent.
Let's face it, something has to explain the huge disparity in achievement between Arabs and Jews in the Middle East.
Let's face it, something has to explain the huge disparity in achievement between Arabs and Jews in the Middle East.
Askanazi jews are alleged to have enlarged frontal lobes developed from centuries of Talmudic memorization and selective breeding.
Let's face it, something has to explain the huge disparity in achievement between Arabs and Jews in the Middle East.
How about aid of 100,000,000,000 US dollars?
about aid of 100,000,000,000 US dollars?
How about $2 billion a year of US aid to Egypt. How about the trillions of dollars of unearned wealth from oil? How about the billions of dollars in aid?
Aid to Israel represents a tiny fraction of that country's GDP. The rest of its prosperity is due to its people's industry and inventiveness.
Israelis produce great technological inventions, art, literature, music, drama.
What exactly has Saudi Arabia, with all its unearned oil wealth, produced?
Aid from the US does nothing to explain the disparity of achievement. Arabs have achieved zilch.
Aid from the US does nothing to explain the disparity of achievement. Arabs have achieved zilch.
So you think it is the lobes?
So you think it is the lobes?
No. If it were the lobes, there would be an excuse for it.
Assuming that intelligence is not all in the genes - funnily enough, if it were, Jews and Arabs have a lot of genes in common - it must be in attitudes and culture.
Instead of spending time hating this tiny country that takes up .0.002% of the Middle East, why don't the Arabs build something and make something of their lives? Develop, change, invent things? Instead of trying to destroy Israel, try to get as many Nobel Prizes, to produce as many books. Wipe the floor with Israel - at music, maths, science?
Just sayin'.
What exactly has Saudi Arabia, with all its unearned oil wealth, produced?
I think the unearned oil wealth is one of the biggest problems with the Middle East, as it entrenches dictators in power.
Another problem is that Israel, Iran, Turkey and possibly Egypt are the only real nations in the Middle East. Most other Middle Eastern states are artificial entities created by colonial powers.
Aid to Israel represents a tiny fraction of that country's GDP. The rest of its prosperity is due to its people's industry and inventiveness.
Israelis produce great technological inventions, art, literature, music, drama.
You invent a (pseudo) civilization out of borrowed money.
Great technological inventions = smart bombs that kill women and children
Great literature = Protocols of the Elderly of Zionism
Great drama = War against Lebanon, 2006 (plus countless previous wars)
If it were the lobes, there would be an excuse for it.
You're so clever
Assuming that intelligence is not all in the genes - funnily enough, if it were, Jews and Arabs have a lot of genes in common
You clearly don't understand the issue.I never said that jews had always been of above average intelligence. I said that it is claimed that Ashkenazi jews have developed greater intelligence over the centuries through various educational AND selective breeding practices.So the fact that arabs and jews are genetically similar isn't relevant.
However there are alternative explanations offered up.Some describe Judaism as a materialist religion (in turn influencing atheist jewish culture) which promotes the accumulation of wealth. This may be true however from your point view as a christian you shouldn't be portraying this as a good thing.The New Testament quite explicitly portrays Jesus as being radically against this type of culture.
Another explanation often mentioned is that jews have become more intelligent as a result of persecution.However by this logic Catholics in Britain should be of above average intelligence and no one claims this nor is it claimed of any other persecuted group.
Wipe the floor with Israel - at music, maths, science?
Well according to a lot of people Iran plans to literally wipe the floor with Israel through the use of mathematics.And they're doing stem cell research when America is still hesitant about it.
They still don't get the point, that - what matters most is their eternal stature. Nothing else.
Poor things.
A lot of Jew hatred comes from jealously. And because Arabs have achieved so little, they are seriously jealous.
You can't beat 'em, that's for sure. Joining 'em is you're best bet.
And because Arabs have achieved so little, they are seriously jealous.
How could the Arabs achieve much anyway given that they came from a barren desert, and spent so much of their history under foreign rule (mostly Turkish, but also British or French later on) ?
You can't beat 'em, that's for sure. Joining 'em is you're best bet.
How exactly, given that Judaism is not a proselytising faith?
I don't mean becoming Jewish, just taking a leaf out of their book. Working hard for a start.
A lot of Jew hatred comes from jealously. And because Arabs have achieved so little, they are seriously jealous.
You can't beat 'em, that's for sure. Joining 'em is you're best bet.
This is just getting pornographic now.
Why don't you try tackling something more on your level.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6730673904656155378&q=shatner
You're so clever
I know. It's a cross I have to bear.