BBC2: The Retreat

assalamu alikeum

I watched the first episode. Its defintaly a beautiful place and i'd love to visit but in terms of certain aspects of worship, i agreed with Aisha. I wouldnt have felt comforable with particpiating the group chanting and 'haaaa' thing (can't remember what it was called) and having watching the diaries on the bbc website, the descriptions given by one of the people- Sarah- it seemed some twirling around and music playing went on as well during the later days, which again personally im not into or with neither join, although if others wanna do that, thats their business. I have no problem with rembering allah and doing dhkir but the manner which it was went about slightly freaked me out lol. Admittely I proabably would have ended up leaving the room and go off to a quiet place where i could either do dhikr alone quitely or read quran.

There were some postive things that i liked about the place, such as doing dhkir which is sometimes neglacted, focusing on develping your spirutal well being and having time to reflect, being in an islamic minded enviroment, the lifestyle and being away from the hustle and bustle of city/suburban life, the location and scenery which was breathtaking.

I didn't like how brother Abduallah made Aisha sound like she was narrow minded. Im sure he didnt mean to but thats how it came across on tv. I don't think she was and she had ever right to ask what she did, without being made guilty or painted as some sort of rigid extremist which is what i felt she was being potrayed as.

I checked their website and it seems you can go there as a visiting tourist which is something i'd be more inclined to do as opposed to following a designated programme, thus being able to do my own thing but at the same time being able to appreiciate some of the things on offer.

It's about time someone made a programme showing the spiritual aspects of islam. Unfortunately the muslims of today are lost. They lack islamic education and knowledge about the history of islam. More importantly they have lost the spiritual aspect of islam. Going to the mosque and islamic center you will only find idiots teachinbg their version of islam. Most of these people are peasants who follow a narrow minded version of islam.

Salams muslim_gal,

I can highly recommend the Rosales institute to you, I have been there many times -by myself and also with friends.

Haven't got/don't watch TV so can't watch the series unfortunately but what I know is that the place is quite mainstream, the founders and most of the people based there are Maliki school adherents.

There's a young Chilean teacher there who has taught myself and some friends Tajweed on and off -he is excellent but the distance made it a bit impractical for us to continue with the course.

What I love most about the centre is its location, it's so isolated up in the hills and it's possible to walk for hours in the surrounding area and not run into another soul.

All food is organic, halal and locally grown.

No idea what the rates are now but we used to pay about 90 pounds for 3 nights inclusive.

Wasalam,
S.

wa'aleikum salaam,

I agree, it's certainly a very beautiful retreat. I also agree that there are some aspects that I wouldn't see myself doing. (On the other hand, never say never). The "haaaaa" thing (cant remember what its called either) left me wondering though, what exactly does it mean to feel Allah in your heart. I mean we all remember and praise Allah during prayer. But I wonder how it's like to feel te essence of Allah inside your heart, how it would change your life... I havent been to Haj, so maybe someone who did can comment.

What I really liked was the commitment of the non-muslims. Getting up for fadjr. Doing dhikr. Really trying to experience what its like to muslim.

As for Aicha, as much as I agree with her on some points, I think her discussing every step doesn't make things easier for her fellow "spirit-travellers".

Seriously though, seeing the retreat made me wish BBC asked me.... Hahaha. Maybe next time Insha'Allah. Like my dear mother says: always have a lot of wishes, the bigger the chance at least one comes true....

I found this program very diverse to the group that was being taught about classical Islam. It showed me that there are Muslims that are more focused on gaining a relationship between themselves & Allah than attempting to be an exact replica of thee Prophet Mohammad blessed be his name.
However the host of the retreat gave a very modern approach to Islam, which may not be favourable along the majority of the Muslim world but to bring this religion into the western developed world alterations need to be made so everyone can live in harmony.
Change is hard and lets not forget how the West had to become more affectionate & caring changing common Christian practice into the Christian Fellowship focused on the love for Allah & Jesus Christ than executing anyone who had the smallest possible fault in their faith.
I respect other religions and everyone’s equal rights but maybe this is the time that cohesion in British Society needs to take place or we may turn into another Israel & Palestine squabble.

Does anyone know if this is repeated? I set up the first episode to tape but the tape's all wobbly!

I've just checked the TV guide for you and there is no repeat. I think it must have repeated yesteday but check with schools, universities & your mosque. They may have made a copy for Islamic Studies.

In the mean time heres the link to the mini-website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/noise/?id=the_retreat

If your interested in some good TV tonight theirs some political spoof you may find interesting on ITV1 9:30.

VIVA ALQUERIA DE ROSLAES

You can download the first programme on

http://www.sunnitorrents.com/viewtopic.php?t=5749

assalamu alykum
i watched the retreat last week and last night also...aisha has every right to question the so called classical islamic practices this man is teaching...this is not classical islam.this is not islamic practices full stop....these are cultural practices...the true teachings of islam are held at al-azhar in egypt (where no extremists are allowed) (and al-azhar is the number one mosque/university in the whole world for islamic and arabic teachings)the haddith and the sunnah of the prophet mohammed (pbah) and the quraan kareem will guide you onto the right path this is the will of allah and allah is all knowing...what abdulah and his wife is teaching i wont say is bad or wrong but it really is more of a cultural way of doing things....which is like teaching another religion inside an already made religion..of course everyone has a right to practice and beleive in what they want but it really upset me when someone calls there way of practice (islam) when it isn't....it is no wonder so many people in this world get confused and afraid ....islam is about peace and love and justification and being at one with allah.but never is this channting and playing music and dancing anything to do with islam practices.....and neither is going to someones graveside (only the place of rest of the prophet mohammed(pbah)...again this is a cultural practice...not an islamic practice...would abdulah like to put his practices and ways of islam to the arabic nations of where islam was first practiced...and where the quraan kareem was first handed down to the prophet mohammed(pbah)by the angel gabriel(saudi arabia) not morroco...this is the classical ways of islam(saudi arabia)

As-salamu alaikum sister Aisha,

I watched the programme last night and I may have misunderstood but I thought what Abdullah said in fact was that Aisha is the one who follows classical islamic practices and finds anything else hard to accept, not the other way around? Maybe someone else can comment.

But that thing about going to a tomb and chanting over it looks so dubious to me, I'd much sooner go to a common cemetery to read du'as there for everyone. Aisha looked visibly distressed at the tomb, poor girl.

Assala mualikum

I watched the programme and although I wasn't physically there, I felt physically disturbed and sicken by the claim that we need to open up to such ridiculous understanding of Islam. By this it appears we are seeing people who are trying to modernise Islam by integrating man made practices. Islam is modern; it deals with all aspect of life! It was frightening to see the women and men dancing and chanting. Islam strictly prohibits that. Islam is the only religion that has not been changed despite mans effort. We need to go by what our Creator has send down as blessing through our prophet Mohammed (pbuh) the Quran and follow the sunnah, this is the only way we can be successful in this life and hereafter. Allah forbids a Muslim to go and invoke dead and ask them to intercede on your behalf. For dead are dead they cannot avail you, even Allah forbids us to seek our prophet’s help for he is one of the deceased. The only time anyone can intercede for Muslim nation is on the Day of Judgment by Allah's leave. So that programme and so called practice that is being attributed as part of Islam is in fact shirked. I can completely empathise with Sister Aisha. May Allah relieve her from this test as a successful servant of the deen. Please do not see this message as an attack but take the time to read about Islam. It’s much more civilised and peaceful than the practices shown in the programme. It is prophesised that many wrongdoers will come after our prophet and claim to be prophets and try to adjust the religion. This is what we are seeing here, bunch of spiritualist claiming their practise is Islam. No it's not! It's SHIRK! May Allah guide them.

AssalamuAlaikum,

I saw the first 2 episodes (third will be on next monday) and personally found it very refreshing.

The thing we need to understand is that 'classical' islam is not islam in a vacume where muslims interpret the quran and sunnah themselves in order to reach certain idealogical conclusions. This is 'modern' islam and is what the current 'everyone can be a mufti' age leads us to believe. 'Classical' Islam is the comprised of four schools of thought in fiqh: Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii, Hanbali; and 2 schools of thought in aqidah: Ash'ari and Maturidi. These schools of thought have been the source of fiqh and aqidah for the past 1400 years--thus being labeled 'classical islam'.

I think people just need to read more Islamic history and need to look at the faith and practice of the past millenia. We tend to see the current islamic culture of 'quran and sunnah without context' and we assume that that is how it was from the beginning. What we forget is that the 4 mujtahid imams of fiqh were the mujtahids who the salaf (thats right, the salaf) went to with their religious questions. They knew and codified Islam when it was at its earliest phase. They preserved the deen for us and handed a framework of principles down generation to generation--each generation of scholars in the chain dealing with the new developments of his age and passing judgement upon it based on the application of the principles of the school to the Quran and Sunnah.

Now, I know group dhikr and the 'hadra' freak a lot of 'modern' muslims out. That is because they dont have much connection to any of the schools of thought of classical islam. If they did, they would know that these schools have not only allowed different expressions of meditation, but have encouraged it. Of course, there are limits--but not to the point that EVERYTHING new gets considered an innovation and gets thrown out.

It would be good for muslims today to do a bit of research on this topic.

I would suggest one start at www.masud.co.uk

WasalaamuAlaikum
h

assalamu alykum brothers and sisters..
i am understanding what you are saying..please forgive me everyone for sometimes i cannot write my thoughts veery good or explain myself very well sometimes......if you go to al-azhar you will learn everything you need to know about islam.the history.the practices.. issues of today. ect....egypt holds the biggest library in the world to do with islamic/arabic studies and teachings..i know and so do millions of other muslim brothers and sisters about what you are saying.....i feel that muslims of today are researching and studying islam even more so than they did say (for example) 10 yrs agoe....i personnally look to fiqh when i need to for the more finer personal things.. as well as other books and imformation for things to do with law, child care,housing,inheritence ect........one of my friends is at moment finishing his finals at al-azhar to be a teacher there...he also said that muslims now are researching and studying islam more now compared to some yrs agoe(from all over the world)...and all my muslim friends know about the history of islam..i would say it is a small minority that dont read much on islam...but that is just my opinion...the sunnah and haddith as well as the quraan kareem are strong sturdy guides..books like the fiqh ect are for more finer personnal things to do with everyday living..

As-salamu alaikum all,

Hasana, I agree with most of what you say but need to check whether the 4 schools actually sanction the kind of dhikr that we saw performed at the tomb in morocco. I found that component of the programme scary.

WasalaamuAlaikum, S.

Isn’t Islam supposed to be practised with etiquette, tell me where you would find in the Islamic nation where women or men would read the Qur’an in such disrespectful manner? The young lady Pom or whatever her name is, was clapping her hands as though she was induced by drug. Atagfirullah…No, that is taking people away from Islam. Like the Ahmadiyas, this is invention. It advocates shirk, my fear is non-Muslim who watch this programme will be confused, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they were freaked out by it. I sure was!

The visit to the tomb was described like the pilgrimage to Makkah…that is blasphemy, how can one compare the two. Anyone with tiny iman would protest that! Makka is the House of Allah, where people visit with full submission, all dressed in 1 colour, where you cannot identify the rich from the poor, hence everyone is equal in the eyes of Allah, and this also prevents the emotion of awe or envy in people. By which pilgrims focus is on the pilgrimage rather than examining the attire of the fellow pilgrims. What benefit can they receive from such chants except Allah’s Wrath? It is encouraged for living to go and visit the deceased and send prayer upon them, not seek their help. This is confusing innocent people and blinding their perception, beautifying an act which is unislamic. Shaytan exists and he works his wonder and always steadfast in leading people astray

There is no such thing as classical/ modern Islam. Islam is based on the teaching of our last prophet through Qur’an and sunnah. Allah commands as to seek knowledge. You couldn’t go wrong!

May Allah guide those that seek his guidance and point out the error of our ways for He is the Of Forgiving Most Merciful.

Salam folks,

Firstly, let us remember we are all united by la ilah ilAllah.

Secondly, Sis Aisha, if you go ask the professors at Al Azhar you will find most of them will agree that the practices of tasawwuf as shown in The Retreat are part of our classical Islamic tradition. In fact some of the greatest Sufis were and are teachers at Al Azhar.

Thirdly, the below may help some of you who are blissfully unaware of our spiritual heritage realise that the practices of group, loud dhikr were common amongst the earliest generations of muslims:

1) The programme, like most TV, is constrained by time, the need to cause a bit of excitement, etc. Rest assured that in the course of that month, all was explained, with proofs, from the Quran, Sunnah and scholarly agreement, so that none of the participants' questions were left unanswered :)

2) A brief search on www.sunnipath.com will provide you answers from classically trained scholars on the legitimacy and indeed merits of dhikr (remembrance of Allah), whether individual or collective, silent or aloud, with reference to the Quran and Sunnah. See examples at : http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=784&CATE=3#loud
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=767&CATE=3

3) As can be seen through a brief reading of the articles at www.masud.co.uk by Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad (Tim Winters) or Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim (Keller) , tasawwuf and its practices were an integral part of Islam and were the mainstream until only about 100 years ago. It is only since the rise of the House of Saud, with its petro-dollar bankrolling of the wahhabi dawa, that the practices of dhikr and salawat have declined.

4) The hadith literature is rich with references to the performance of collective dhikr and the practices which would be seen at The Retreat. Abu Hurayra r.a. would not sleep until he had invoked the name of Allah 1000 times on his rope (like a tasbih, with knots). Imam Ali (in a hadith recorded by Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal) said that the sahaba would sway "like the bamboo bush in the winds" when remembering Allah. The Prophet peace be upon him was petitioned by the people of Madina to make some of his muhajiroun more quiet, for they would cry out at night when reciting, invoking or praying. And so it goes on.

Salam,
I have enjoyed watching the first two programmes in the series'The retreat'. It is about time that we Muslims sought out the true meaning and nature of our Islam. Yes we must follow the prescribed path in acting upon what's in the Quran and sunnah but we must also search within our hearts and souls for connection and meaning.If we stopped to focus on perfecting our own egos instead of thinking we do enough by completing the 5 pillars of Islam ,then think of the difference it would make to own lives, that of our families and communities and indeed the Muslim world.Let's strive to make this world a better place by working on our selves first before we criticize others.Isn't that the true Jihad ?

Salam,

I watched all the episodes, and like many found it freashing and wonderful. As a person, being brought up in London, I only saw the western side of islam, so to speak and it didn't really attract me to the religoin. At mosque there wasn't much to absorb spiritually, its only do's and don'ts or haram and halal. I thought that was really narrow minded of many people to say something and do another, basically hypocrits. i always knew there was a more warming and free side to Islam, a part thats all about feeling, but unfortunatly that isn't taught these days. But when i watched this i was so relieved to see the side of Islam that i really love but never actually embraced. It kinda helped me to look at it in a spiritual prospective, because that works best for me and now I feel like a Muslim and i want to know more abd discover this beautiful religion. I'm sure many people feel this way too.

I was really touched when Pom converted to Islam. I'v never seen anybody convert to Islam and I loved it. Her reaction and her relief showed the power of Islam, the power that you can't describe in words.

AssalamuAlaikum

"i always knew there was a more warming and free side to Islam, a part thats all about feeling, but unfortunatly that isn't taught these days."

It IS still taught, but not advertized and proselytized the way the outward aspect of the religion is.

It is said that a man who practices tasawwuf without fiqh is in danger of turning into a heretic. And a man who practices fiqh without tasawwuf is in danger of turning into a fasiq, or one who flagrantly transgresses the laws of Allah.

Remember, the deen is about specialization. If you wish to learn tajwid, go to a tajwid specialist. If its fiqh you are after, find a fiqh specialist. Same goes for aqidah...and same goes for tasawwuf.

If you wish to purify yourself of the INWARD diseases of the heart, go to a sheikh of tasawwuf. A valid sheikh of tasawwuf (for sadly there are a few imposters present in the muslim world) is one who understands that the shariah is greater than him or anyone else, and who has been given authorization to teach the science, and train the student, by a teacher of a lineal chain going back to the Prophet (may allah bless him and give him peace).

There are many different schools, or tariqas, in tasawwuf. If you have heard of the Shadhili, Naqshbandi, Qadiri, Rifa'i, and Ba'alawi tariqas then you already know the names of a few valid tariqas and can continue your quest from there. But even within these tariqas, make sure that the sheikh (or murshid) you are interested in has an authorization to teach from his own teacher in the path and is firm on the shariah.

The Alqueria de Rosales place featured on 'The Retreat' is affiliated with the Naqshbandi tariqa from what I recall. If I am mistaken then someone please jump in and correct me.

And again, some EXCELLENT information on the traditional path can be found on the www.masud.co.uk website.

WasalaamuAlaikum

Salaams,

I ve read the comments on here regarding how you view the sufi version of Islamic chanting. I am from a traditional Islamic background... So not so up on the Sufi side of things. But What i find annoying in this thread is the "my Islam is better than your Islam" view. It is probably correct that the type of Islam shown in the Retreat is acceptable in Islam... I remember at the Madressah we use to end classes with 10 mins dhikr... whats wrong in that? wernt the people on show just praising Allah... they read the 5 times salaat (Farz accomplished) anything extra is just Nafil Ibaadat!

Like the professor said, Islam needs to move forward and needs to appeal to the indigenous population of the UK to find more converts... he was spot on when he said that there is a spiritual vacuum in British society. If Sufi Islam is appealing to the locals LET THEM DO IT! As long as they follow the path of Allah and they do in an acceptable form them let it be!

Narrow minded Muslims like Aisha, and some of the bloggers here are why Muslims and Islam has been held back... Just because you dont like it is not wrong!

Islam and Muslims need to be pragmatic in the 15th Islamic century! By keeping the core beliefs the same... lets push the boundary in a Halal way and appeal to the Europeans... or else the Buddists, or the Evangelical Christians will Convert these people.

Just think about it and get back to me

Wasalaam!

Ismail

asalaam alaikum.
i am upset by the amount of disrespect for the sufi way of islam wich is respected, across the muslim world. i myself have not engaged in the so called "sing along",or call my self a sufi, but some times when i`m walking or siting alone ,will recite any quran i know ,in particular suratal fahtihah.
i find it very warmin, and indeed closer to Allah t`ala..forget wich "man " you follow, islam is about getting closer to Allah .its that simple.
please do not put silly, dry, unreasonable, doubts into the mix.!islam is simple and versitile..please use some thought .... intalect..
islam is the thinking persons way.. the middle way! and subhanaAllah, pom and the rest were all brought closer to Allah t`ala!. anyone who has a problem with that..needs there head read!
please brothers and sisters..look a little deeper..
may Alla guide us and forgive us ...ameeen.

salam
you have left me very confused ismail...you are saying aisha is narrow minded? i think she is open minded because she took the step to go to the retreat in first place, or do you mean aisha that has written a message in here is narrow minded? because i also feel she is open minded also and was not saying it was bad or wrong and others were entittled to do what they wanted ,right? but gave her opinion like everyone else has including yourself.
you know i feel the problem is there are to many different branches (sects) in islam and it will make others confused with what islam really is about.
in my opinion i agree with the others in here that the sunnah is the right way as the prophet mohamed pbuh was (the last prophet)all other followings (sects) follow ordinary men in the name of islam and they follow there ways which then steers away from the correct path of islam,which was with the last prophet (mohammed) pbuh.
this is not an extremist view but in my opinion and i to am very open minded, dont stand in judgment of the others or give personal attacks on people you dont know, only allah has the right to stand in judgment, but where the programme is concerned everyone has the right to give an opinion on it as that is what programmes are for.
i agree with aisha alot of the practices are cultural practices and every culture has a different way of doing things whether right or wrong.
but if you want to get more converts to islam then they first must know what is the correct path without any confusions,that is my opinion.
wasalam

www.masud.co.uk

Shaikh Abdal-Hakim Murad

UNDERSTANDING THE FOUR MADHHABS
the problem with anti-madhhabism

*Yusuf says: please see [this page](http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/newmadhh.htm) for the article 'justoju' posted. Please note that I do not allow entire articles to be posted as comments here, especially if they are already available elsewhere.*

sallam, could i have the number for the place, where 6 people went to the retreat

Salam Alaikum

Yes, I too watched the whole series of prgrammes on BBC 2 and found it very moving. I am not a muslim, but a Christian of an with unorthodox views. I was interested in the faith of Abdullah Trevathan and his follwing of the Sufi tradition of Islam. I really felt that I was there at the retreat, and I certainly found the spirituality coming accross. I think I would like to do 'retreat' one day, whether its Islamic or Christian. The only thing I would find difficult is getting up to go to prayer hall for morning prayers at 5 am. All in all, I felt that if Islam followed a bit more of the Sufi Spirituality, then as one of the Faiths of the Book, attitudes could change. However the ideals of a retreat were that 'inner peace' that all peoples of faith strive to touch and reach. May Allah/God go with you

wasalam