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	<title>Comments on: Jews, Muslims and free speech</title>
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	<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech</link>
	<description>Politics, tech and media issues from a Muslim perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Tarek Abdel Aleem</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1198</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarek Abdel Aleem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1198</guid>
		<description>I love my faith but sometimes people make it difficult, especially muslims.  It&#039;s like they automatically hate me for belonging to my Jewish faith.  I remember one guy in particular Tarek Abdel Aleem used to say nasty things about all these religions during school.  He had a big chip on his shoulders  and a big gap between his teeth.  It seemed like he thought the world was against him just because he was a muslim and he wanted Palestine to rule the world.

I think my house is bigger than Palestine.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love my faith but sometimes people make it difficult, especially muslims.  It&#8217;s like they automatically hate me for belonging to my Jewish faith.  I remember one guy in particular Tarek Abdel Aleem used to say nasty things about all these religions during school.  He had a big chip on his shoulders  and a big gap between his teeth.  It seemed like he thought the world was against him just because he was a muslim and he wanted Palestine to rule the world.</p>

<p>I think my house is bigger than Palestine.</p>
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		<title>By: George Carty</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1197</link>
		<dc:creator>George Carty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1197</guid>
		<description>On the subject of Arab genocide of Berbers, it did happen, but not at the time of the Islamic conquests.  (In fact the Byzantines were holding off the Arabs reasonably well in North Africa until the Berbers converted to Islam and hit &#039;em in the rear).

The mass murder of Berbers was perpetrated about two centuries later by the Shi&#039;a Fatimid dynasty, which hated the Berbers for being Sunni.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the subject of Arab genocide of Berbers, it did happen, but not at the time of the Islamic conquests.  (In fact the Byzantines were holding off the Arabs reasonably well in North Africa until the Berbers converted to Islam and hit &#8216;em in the rear).</p>

<p>The mass murder of Berbers was perpetrated about two centuries later by the Shi&#8217;a Fatimid dynasty, which hated the Berbers for being Sunni.</p>
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		<title>By: George Carty</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1196</link>
		<dc:creator>George Carty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 09:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1196</guid>
		<description>Pot, kettle, black.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pot, kettle, black.</p>
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		<title>By: DrM</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1195</link>
		<dc:creator>DrM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1195</guid>
		<description>So &quot;bnp in UK&quot; tell us whats really on your mind. Better yet, why bother since you dont have one?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So &#8220;bnp in UK&#8221; tell us whats really on your mind. Better yet, why bother since you dont have one?</p>
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		<title>By: m in the uk</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1194</link>
		<dc:creator>m in the uk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Mar 2007 04:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1194</guid>
		<description>It is very refreshing to see an open and frank debate where there is actually a level playing field with the proponents of &quot;Islam&quot;...

Which I think has certainly become too proscriptive.... and politicised... as a means of overpowing anyone else whom doesn&#039;t agree.

Was this what their prophet had in mind at the start...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is very refreshing to see an open and frank debate where there is actually a level playing field with the proponents of &#8220;Islam&#8221;&#8230;</p>

<p>Which I think has certainly become too proscriptive&#8230;. and politicised&#8230; as a means of overpowing anyone else whom doesn&#8217;t agree.</p>

<p>Was this what their prophet had in mind at the start&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: George Carty</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1193</link>
		<dc:creator>George Carty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1193</guid>
		<description>Thersites: &lt;i&gt;It probably didn&#039;t take genocide for the arab conquerors of Egypt to eventually outnumber the copts: a privileged religion that encouraged conversion and practised polyandry&lt;/i&gt;

I think you mean &lt;i&gt;polygyny&lt;/i&gt; (one man, several wives).  &lt;i&gt;Polyandry&lt;/i&gt; (one woman, several husbands) is not permitted in Islam (or in the vast majority of other human cultures).

Thersites: &lt;i&gt;One reason why the conquest of Spain failed was internecine warfare between the arabs and berbers.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;d suggest that dependence on &#039;barbarian&#039; mercenaries  was the downfall of many a Middle Eastern empire.

As you rightly mention, al-Andalus was torn apart by its Berber mercenaries, but did you also know that the Umayyad caliphate in Damascus was largely destroyed by Persian heavy cavalry (who were little changed from their Sassanid predecessors), and that once the Abbasids lost the old Persian cavalry country they resorted to Turkish mercenaries, and were ultimately puppetized by them.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thersites: <i>It probably didn&#8217;t take genocide for the arab conquerors of Egypt to eventually outnumber the copts: a privileged religion that encouraged conversion and practised polyandry</i></p>

<p>I think you mean <i>polygyny</i> (one man, several wives).  <i>Polyandry</i> (one woman, several husbands) is not permitted in Islam (or in the vast majority of other human cultures).</p>

<p>Thersites: <i>One reason why the conquest of Spain failed was internecine warfare between the arabs and berbers.</i></p>

<p>I&#8217;d suggest that dependence on &#8216;barbarian&#8217; mercenaries  was the downfall of many a Middle Eastern empire.</p>

<p>As you rightly mention, al-Andalus was torn apart by its Berber mercenaries, but did you also know that the Umayyad caliphate in Damascus was largely destroyed by Persian heavy cavalry (who were little changed from their Sassanid predecessors), and that once the Abbasids lost the old Persian cavalry country they resorted to Turkish mercenaries, and were ultimately puppetized by them.</p>
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		<title>By: George Carty</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1192</link>
		<dc:creator>George Carty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1192</guid>
		<description>John Palubiski: &lt;i&gt;Not true, George.  The difference between Spanish and French, both latin languages, lies in the fact that the former has elements of Arabic.  Languages don&#039;t lie.&lt;/i&gt;

Firstly, the English-speaking peoples in North America and in Australia pursued essentially genocidal policies against the indigenous peoples in those regions.  However it didn&#039;t stop Aboriginal words entering the English language (mostly relating to flora and fauna, or to Aboriginal life).

Secondly, the Arabic influence isn&#039;t the only reason why Spanish is different from French.  French was also influenced by non-Latin languages &#8211; the ancient Gauls counted in twenties, and this is still reflected in modern French &quot;soixante, soixante-dix, quatre-vingts, quatre-vingt-dix&quot;.  French was also influenced by the Germanic languages, this is why French (alone among modern major Romance languages) requires explicit subject pronouns.

In addition, Vulgar Latin (the predecessor of the modern Romance languages spoken by ordinary Romans, as opposed to literary Classical Latin &#8211; think of the difference between dialectal Arabic and Qur&#039;anic Arabic for a comparison) was not uniform throughout the Empire.  In Italia and Gaul the people used &lt;i&gt;plus&lt;/i&gt; for &quot;more&quot; and &lt;i&gt;habere&lt;/i&gt; for &quot;to have&quot; (which ultimately became &lt;i&gt;più&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;avere&lt;/i&gt; in Italian and &lt;i&gt;plus&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;avoir&lt;/i&gt; in French), while in Hispania they used magis for &quot;more&quot; and &lt;i&gt;tenere&lt;/i&gt; for &quot;to have&quot; (leading to modern &lt;i&gt;más&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;tener&lt;/i&gt;).

In addition, all modern Romance languages smashed the Latin case system, but Italian based its plurals on the Latin nominative case changing -o (Latin -us) to -i and -a to -e (Latin -ae), while the others based its plurals on the Latin accusative case, ultimately simplifying to the addition of an -s (or -es for Spanish words ending in a consonant).  Also, the Latin terminals were more thoroughly smashed in French than in the other Romance languages &#8211; Latin &lt;i&gt;lupus&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;luna&lt;/i&gt; became &lt;i&gt;lupo&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;luna&lt;/i&gt; in Italian, &lt;i&gt;lobo&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;luna&lt;/i&gt; in Spanish, but &lt;i&gt;loup&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;lune&lt;/i&gt; (silent &quot;e&quot;) in French.

John Palubiski: &lt;i&gt;Every heard the expression &quot;tete de ble&quot;?  It&#039;s french for &quot;head of wheat&quot;.  It&#039;s a term of endearment Berbers often use among themselves to desgintate those in the community who&#039;ve blond hair.  &quot;Blondie&quot;.&lt;/i&gt;

I can&#039;t believe that in such a sunny region that the indigenous population would be blonde.  It is far more likely that blonde &quot;Berbers&quot; are actually the descendents of Europeans who were enslaved by the Barbary Pirates.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Palubiski: <i>Not true, George.  The difference between Spanish and French, both latin languages, lies in the fact that the former has elements of Arabic.  Languages don&#8217;t lie.</i></p>

<p>Firstly, the English-speaking peoples in North America and in Australia pursued essentially genocidal policies against the indigenous peoples in those regions.  However it didn&#8217;t stop Aboriginal words entering the English language (mostly relating to flora and fauna, or to Aboriginal life).</p>

<p>Secondly, the Arabic influence isn&#8217;t the only reason why Spanish is different from French.  French was also influenced by non-Latin languages &ndash; the ancient Gauls counted in twenties, and this is still reflected in modern French &#8220;soixante, soixante-dix, quatre-vingts, quatre-vingt-dix&#8221;.  French was also influenced by the Germanic languages, this is why French (alone among modern major Romance languages) requires explicit subject pronouns.</p>

<p>In addition, Vulgar Latin (the predecessor of the modern Romance languages spoken by ordinary Romans, as opposed to literary Classical Latin &ndash; think of the difference between dialectal Arabic and Qur&#8217;anic Arabic for a comparison) was not uniform throughout the Empire.  In Italia and Gaul the people used <i>plus</i> for &#8220;more&#8221; and <i>habere</i> for &#8220;to have&#8221; (which ultimately became <i>più</i> and <i>avere</i> in Italian and <i>plus</i> and <i>avoir</i> in French), while in Hispania they used magis for &#8220;more&#8221; and <i>tenere</i> for &#8220;to have&#8221; (leading to modern <i>más</i> and <i>tener</i>).</p>

<p>In addition, all modern Romance languages smashed the Latin case system, but Italian based its plurals on the Latin nominative case changing -o (Latin -us) to -i and -a to -e (Latin -ae), while the others based its plurals on the Latin accusative case, ultimately simplifying to the addition of an -s (or -es for Spanish words ending in a consonant).  Also, the Latin terminals were more thoroughly smashed in French than in the other Romance languages &ndash; Latin <i>lupus</i> and <i>luna</i> became <i>lupo</i> and <i>luna</i> in Italian, <i>lobo</i> and <i>luna</i> in Spanish, but <i>loup</i> and <i>lune</i> (silent &#8220;e&#8221;) in French.</p>

<p>John Palubiski: <i>Every heard the expression &#8220;tete de ble&#8221;?  It&#8217;s french for &#8220;head of wheat&#8221;.  It&#8217;s a term of endearment Berbers often use among themselves to desgintate those in the community who&#8217;ve blond hair.  &#8220;Blondie&#8221;.</i></p>

<p>I can&#8217;t believe that in such a sunny region that the indigenous population would be blonde.  It is far more likely that blonde &#8220;Berbers&#8221; are actually the descendents of Europeans who were enslaved by the Barbary Pirates.</p>
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		<title>By: Raashid</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1191</link>
		<dc:creator>Raashid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1191</guid>
		<description>Well yes, in the West collectively that may be the belief, but amongst Jews and US Christians they derive legitimacy from God. But as they know most Westerners don&#039;t buy into that they tend to put forward a support based on a secular argument, i.e. Israel must be supported as it&#039;s the only democracy etc. they were their first, the Arabs hate them because they&#039;re anti-Semitic etc.
Most Muslims reject Israel due to the nature it came about at the expense of their fellow Muslims. I very much doubt they give any great ideological thought to it.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well yes, in the West collectively that may be the belief, but amongst Jews and US Christians they derive legitimacy from God. But as they know most Westerners don&#8217;t buy into that they tend to put forward a support based on a secular argument, i.e. Israel must be supported as it&#8217;s the only democracy etc. they were their first, the Arabs hate them because they&#8217;re anti-Semitic etc.
Most Muslims reject Israel due to the nature it came about at the expense of their fellow Muslims. I very much doubt they give any great ideological thought to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Thersites</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1190</link>
		<dc:creator>Thersites</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1190</guid>
		<description>JP:
It probably didn&#039;t take genocide for the arab conquerors of Egypt to eventually outnumber the copts: a privileged religion that encouraged conversion and practised polyandry and intermarriage with women from the conquered community on one side and a monogamous subject religion with some of the men becoming celibate meant that simple demographics would produce a similar effect over more than a thousand years. Similarly with the berbers. One reason why the conquest of Spain failed was internecine warfare between the arabs and berbers. An apparently  monolithic set of conquerors are lot more impressive and persuasive than ones that fight and quarrel among themselves, apart from the oportunities the latter present to the conquered.

The treatment of the conquered by Europeans in the Americas shows that moral considerations didn&#039;t count for much there either.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JP:
It probably didn&#8217;t take genocide for the arab conquerors of Egypt to eventually outnumber the copts: a privileged religion that encouraged conversion and practised polyandry and intermarriage with women from the conquered community on one side and a monogamous subject religion with some of the men becoming celibate meant that simple demographics would produce a similar effect over more than a thousand years. Similarly with the berbers. One reason why the conquest of Spain failed was internecine warfare between the arabs and berbers. An apparently  monolithic set of conquerors are lot more impressive and persuasive than ones that fight and quarrel among themselves, apart from the oportunities the latter present to the conquered.</p>

<p>The treatment of the conquered by Europeans in the Americas shows that moral considerations didn&#8217;t count for much there either.</p>
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		<title>By: George Carty</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1189</link>
		<dc:creator>George Carty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/03/16/jews_muslims_and_free_speech#comment-1189</guid>
		<description>Raashid: &lt;i&gt;Yet at the same time, they see nothing wrong with basing Israel&#039;s legitimacy on a religious belief in the promise made to Jews by God.&lt;/i&gt;

No, I think the main legitimator for Israel in the West runs along the lines that &quot;The Jews are a nation, and therefore deserve their own state as do any other nation&quot;.

Anti-Zionists are either anti-Semites (Jew-haters), or they are people who are ideologically hostile to the entire nation-state idea (eg Communists, some Islamists)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raashid: <i>Yet at the same time, they see nothing wrong with basing Israel&#8217;s legitimacy on a religious belief in the promise made to Jews by God.</i></p>

<p>No, I think the main legitimator for Israel in the West runs along the lines that &#8220;The Jews are a nation, and therefore deserve their own state as do any other nation&#8221;.</p>

<p>Anti-Zionists are either anti-Semites (Jew-haters), or they are people who are ideologically hostile to the entire nation-state idea (eg Communists, some Islamists)</p>
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