Comments on: “Dancing slags” and pied pipers

By: Richard AD Melvin

Richard AD Melvin — Mon, 14 May 2007 21:27:52 +0000

Except it’s not 2 out of 10,000. The category ‘successful suicide attacks on Israel’ has a less than two hundred members. The category ‘successful or attempted suicide attacks in Europe’ has less than that.

For a small group of 10,000 to be represented in both of those categories even once is extremely unlikely to be a matter of chance. Two proven cases makes it a statistical impossibility, at least hundreds of millions to one against.

By: L. Euler

L. Euler — Fri, 11 May 2007 18:24:33 +0000

So 2 people out of a group of 10,000 gives you meaningful statistics??

2 out of 10,000 is not even epsilon(ε). Ask a student of maths what epsilon is.

By: raashid

raashid — Fri, 11 May 2007 08:07:52 +0000

The exampl who had an association with HT doesn’t count as a proper analysis to me. As it is just these two individuals out of probably thousands who have been members of HT at some point, HT can’t be described as a conveyor belt that churns out terrorists. The Babar individual claims he joined HT during the first Gulf War but there’s no evidence from this article that it was his time spent with HT that led to his turning terrorist. Many people from the hard-right of the Conservative Party get disollusioned and end up joinging the NF and BNP. Yet nobody would countenance the idea that the Tories are a conveyor belt of fascism. People join certain groups because it may have a superficial appeal to them, but then find their needs are not met so move on to another group that they think does (or start their own group as seems to be a common phenomenon amongst Muslims). I don’t see how the original group are then held responsible for the direction ex-members go. If anything, the fact that they moved on would seem to exonerate the original group for not being sympathetic enough to terror.

By: Sunny

Sunny — Thu, 10 May 2007 14:48:29 +0000

and I just don't see a conveyor belt at all. They all seem to jump on to the Al-Qaeda bandwagon from completely personal circumstances which don't seem to have any common thread, or at least not one that could be put down to an organised group such as HT. you're basing this on personal views rather than any proper analysis. Both Omar Sharfi, who blew himself up in Israel: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/student/news/article640346.ece and Muhammed Babar, were linked with HuT http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/public/article695074.ece

By: raashid

raashid — Tue, 08 May 2007 13:53:42 +0000

I don’t know George, if you look atthe sort of men that have become terrorists (from the West) they come from pretty diverse backgrounds and I just don’t see a conveyor belt at all. They all seem to jump on to the Al-Qaeda bandwagon from completely personal circumstances which don’t seem to have any common thread, or at least not one that could be put down to an organised group such as HT. The Israelis don’t really have the ability to eradicate their enemies as such, they’re nuclear arsenal could destroy Muslims civilisation (and I know most Westerners would use that term loosely in any discussion about Islam) but they would still have countless enemies inhabiting the radioactive rubble. Whereas the white settlers to the Americas and Oz could push the natives to extinction due to their far smaller numbers.

By: George Carty

George Carty — Tue, 08 May 2007 13:21:35 +0000

Since virtually nobody who’s stepped on to the HT belt has come out at the other end as a terrorist the idea doesn’t hold up in terms of reality.

Maybe Islamism is like drug-taking. A typical heroin addict started with marijuana, but a typical marijuana smoker is unlikely to become a heroin addict.

Unlike the white settlers to the Americas who could count on an unlimited pool of their own people to continually boost their numbers, the Israelis only have technological advantages to stave off their destruction - but not the ability to eradicate their enemies entirely.

The Israelis have the ability to eradicate their enemies - what they’re lacking is Härte and a willingness to take action that even the Americans would find sickening…

By: raashid

raashid — Tue, 08 May 2007 11:00:28 +0000

Sunny, the “conveyor belt” (or escalator if you prefer) theory doesn’t need an intelligenmt analysis as it’s self-evident. An conveyor belt by definition takes an item, or in this case a person, along a fixed route or process to a finished article or location. Since virtually nobody who’s stepped on to the HT belt has come out at the other end as a terrorist the idea doesn’t hold up in terms of reality. Were the two people arrested who had links to HT actually CONVICTED of anything in terms of actual terroist acts such as the 7/7 bombings? George - you’re absolutely right and makes Sunny’s queries about the Arab-Israeli conflict irrelevant except as an academic exercise. The fact is the conflict is intractable as neither side accepts they’re wrong and it will probably only end with total victory of one over the other. Unlike the white settlers to the Americas who could count on an unlimited pool of their own people to continually boost their numbers, the Israelis only have technological advantages to stave off their destruction - but not the ability to eradicate their enemies entirely.

By: George Carty

George Carty — Tue, 08 May 2007 08:42:07 +0000

Here is the problem: ‘the other side’ can use the same argument whether you like it or not. How many times have surrounding Muslim countries tried to destroy Israel? they still do. Don’t you think they feel victimised, and use that same theory to justify oppressing Palestinians?

That’s one reason why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is so horrible, because both sides have good cause to view themselves as victims.

By: Sunny

Sunny — Tue, 08 May 2007 02:05:21 +0000

The numbers of Al-Qaeda that had previously been involved with HT are statistically insignificant. In fact, is there any evidence that ANY HT members then went on to become Al-Qaeda

Is this supposed to be intelligent analysis? What does statistically insignificant mean when it takes 4 people to blow up London’s tubes out of 1.6 million British Muslims. That is also a very small statistic.

And yes, two people previous arrested, including Babar, were involved with HuT.

I’m not in favour of banning HuT, I just haven’t read a good argument against the converyor belt theory.

They’re motivated by a desire to avenge the deaths, dispossession, torture or humiliation of their people at the hands of “the other”. Something that has been done throughout history by people unable to defend themselves against the standing army of an invader

I like people to have consistent standards, not one for themselves and another for the “other side”.

As is usual from Western Islamophobes, you attempt to equate understanding to support. Yusuf never claimed that every israeli is a legitimate target for death

I’ll let the Islamophobe slur slide since people like you use it like you eat hot dinners.

I asked Yusuf for his answer not you. He can answer for himself can’t he?

By: George Carty

George Carty — Mon, 07 May 2007 16:09:25 +0000

Something that has been done throughout history by people unable to defend themselves against the standing army of an invader. The Indians of the Americas did the same thing, as did the Aborigines of Australia…

Or even the British in World War II, who before D-day bombed German cities in order to take the war back to the enemy…