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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Hate books&#8221; that aren&#8217;t</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent</link>
	<description>Politics, tech and media issues from a Muslim perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Garry</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1911</link>
		<dc:creator>Garry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 21:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1911</guid>
		<description>Denis MacEoin said:

&quot;There is not a single church, synagogue, Hindu temple, Sikh Gudwara, or other religious building in this country where you will find anything like this.&quot;

Really? Did you conduct a &quot;comprehensive academic survey&quot; of every religious building in the whole country? Or is that just an unsubstantiated claim based on what you already think?

Anyway, I&#039;ve read the report and it doesn&#039;t contain the information on methodology that you&#039;d expect in an academic paper. I&#039;d very much like to know more about the methodology behind this &quot;academic survey&quot; (and I&#039;m not the only one either).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denis MacEoin said:</p>

<p>&#8220;There is not a single church, synagogue, Hindu temple, Sikh Gudwara, or other religious building in this country where you will find anything like this.&#8221;</p>

<p>Really? Did you conduct a &#8220;comprehensive academic survey&#8221; of every religious building in the whole country? Or is that just an unsubstantiated claim based on what you already think?</p>

<p>Anyway, I&#8217;ve read the report and it doesn&#8217;t contain the information on methodology that you&#8217;d expect in an academic paper. I&#8217;d very much like to know more about the methodology behind this &#8220;academic survey&#8221; (and I&#8217;m not the only one either).</p>
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		<title>By: Denis MacEoin</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1910</link>
		<dc:creator>Denis MacEoin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 15:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1910</guid>
		<description>For the record, I have never been particularly right-wing, and have always considered myself a middle-of-the-road liberal. Necessarily, there will be topics on which I lean more to the left, and others where I lean to the right. The left&#039;s approach to radical Islam is utterly pathetic and self-destructive, whereas the right shows common sense and a large degree of morality. We did not go in expecting to find more serious material: that&#039;s a job for the police. We just bought what was on open sale. And it isn&#039;t just slightly shocking. A lot of texts call for outright hatred of all non-believers, command Muslims to have nothing to do with Jews and Christians, and boast that Muslims are superior to everyone else. There are anti-Semitic texts and there are texts that call for physical jihad. There is a text that allows under-age girls to be married. There are orders to kill homosexuals. Music, singing and otrher normal parts of a healthy life are banned. The many passages on women are demeaning, abusive, and repulsive. There is more than enough here to be a cause of concern, not just to non-Muslims, b ut to moderate Muslims, such as the ones we worked with.  Instead of dismissing this material, as Bunglawal, the MCB, and others have done, isn&#039;t it time they got real and either stopped pretending they are moderates or got behind the efforts of real moderates to root this sort of material out. There is not a single church, synagogue, Hindu temple, Sikh Gudwara, or other religious building in this country where you will fing anything like this. Muslims say they want to be treated like other citizens. If that&#039;s true, why can&#039;t they start behaving like other citizens? Why preach total separatism and complain about Islamophobia?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, I have never been particularly right-wing, and have always considered myself a middle-of-the-road liberal. Necessarily, there will be topics on which I lean more to the left, and others where I lean to the right. The left&#8217;s approach to radical Islam is utterly pathetic and self-destructive, whereas the right shows common sense and a large degree of morality. We did not go in expecting to find more serious material: that&#8217;s a job for the police. We just bought what was on open sale. And it isn&#8217;t just slightly shocking. A lot of texts call for outright hatred of all non-believers, command Muslims to have nothing to do with Jews and Christians, and boast that Muslims are superior to everyone else. There are anti-Semitic texts and there are texts that call for physical jihad. There is a text that allows under-age girls to be married. There are orders to kill homosexuals. Music, singing and otrher normal parts of a healthy life are banned. The many passages on women are demeaning, abusive, and repulsive. There is more than enough here to be a cause of concern, not just to non-Muslims, b ut to moderate Muslims, such as the ones we worked with.  Instead of dismissing this material, as Bunglawal, the MCB, and others have done, isn&#8217;t it time they got real and either stopped pretending they are moderates or got behind the efforts of real moderates to root this sort of material out. There is not a single church, synagogue, Hindu temple, Sikh Gudwara, or other religious building in this country where you will fing anything like this. Muslims say they want to be treated like other citizens. If that&#8217;s true, why can&#8217;t they start behaving like other citizens? Why preach total separatism and complain about Islamophobia?</p>
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		<title>By: dalek</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1909</link>
		<dc:creator>dalek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2007 15:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1909</guid>
		<description>Inayat Bunglawala debated this issue with Dean Godson of Policy Exchange.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiuY5JS7ucA&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiuY5JS7ucA&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiuY5JS7ucA&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Well worth watching!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Inayat Bunglawala debated this issue with Dean Godson of Policy Exchange.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiuY5JS7ucA"></a><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiuY5JS7ucA">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiuY5JS7ucA</a></p>

<p>Well worth watching!</p>
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		<title>By: Yunus Yakoub Islam</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1908</link>
		<dc:creator>Yunus Yakoub Islam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2007 08:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1908</guid>
		<description>When Neal Robinson was at Leeds (when I was reading my degree there), he was a Christian with a long beard who prayed in mosques and was often thought to be Muslim, but was in fact a Christian (and like MacEoin, he is another Arabist, not a sociologist or anthropologist).  He was a talking heads on John Ware&#039;s Panorama about the MCB, &quot;A Question of Leadership&quot;. At the University of Wales he publicly opposed accrediting the European Institute of Human Sciences, on the grounds that it had links to Yusuf al-Qaradawi.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Neal Robinson was at Leeds (when I was reading my degree there), he was a Christian with a long beard who prayed in mosques and was often thought to be Muslim, but was in fact a Christian (and like MacEoin, he is another Arabist, not a sociologist or anthropologist).  He was a talking heads on John Ware&#8217;s Panorama about the MCB, &#8220;A Question of Leadership&#8221;. At the University of Wales he publicly opposed accrediting the European Institute of Human Sciences, on the grounds that it had links to Yusuf al-Qaradawi.</p>
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		<title>By: time</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1907</link>
		<dc:creator>time</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1907</guid>
		<description>&quot;Declaring enmity to disbeliever in general, even when treating them fairly/with justice within certain condiitons&quot;

Sorry that was a typo, I meant treating them justly/fairly is always the case (defined by then norms of Islamic law). However showing non-Muslims mercy and kindess is contingent to certain conditions - that relates to the laws of warfare.

Just wanted to clarify that.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Declaring enmity to disbeliever in general, even when treating them fairly/with justice within certain condiitons&#8221;</p>

<p>Sorry that was a typo, I meant treating them justly/fairly is always the case (defined by then norms of Islamic law). However showing non-Muslims mercy and kindess is contingent to certain conditions - that relates to the laws of warfare.</p>

<p>Just wanted to clarify that.</p>
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		<title>By: Time</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1906</link>
		<dc:creator>Time</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1906</guid>
		<description>Indigo - Neil Robinson, who is a Muslim, prefaced the book.

Denis MacEoin, as far as I know is an ex-Bahai, right wing, Israel supporter. Does it matter, of course it does. You simply cannot discount people&#039;s backgrounds, it&#039;s not exactly conspiracy hunting. That&#039;s why I am suprised that Neil Robinson, someone I highly respect, should preface this obviously malicious report. Policy Exchange is also a centre right, conservative hawkish think tank.

But saying all that, many of these quotes are rooted in Muslim heritage. Declaring enmity to disbeliever in general, even when treating them fairly/with justice within certain condiitons, would be found in any of the main tafseer books - Qurtubi, Tabari, Al-Razi etc.

Some of their statements on Jews and Christians, would be in todays standards, be considered &#039;hate filled&#039;. See what Al-Razi calls Jews, the quote is in Izhar Al-Haq (they were a religious community then). Often these traditional scholars would quote extensive scripture.

Agressvie warfare and subjugating disbelievers and imposing what would be considered by todays standards as disriminatory laws, does exist in mainstream Muslim scholarship. These are fully orthodox Sunnis - as you well know. Some have even declared the concensus of the companions and  the community on many of these positions.

Does this relate to &#039;extremism&#039; or terrorism? Mainly no. Most Muslims wouldn&#039;t read these texts (few would but them and many exist in huge encyclopedias no one bothers opening) and those who do and would agree know that these laws are very much linked to an Islamic entity - as you pointed out. As for hating disbelievers, well that does not mean you kill disbelievers, decieve them or treat them unfairly. It has little to do with terrorism - which is linked and driven by foreign policy, whether Policy Exchange admit it or not.

However many of these opinions are indeed separatist, and I would argue it does exist as a trend in mainstream medievel texts, but there are separtist communities, who take their religious heritage seriously in other religions e.g. ultra-orthodox Jews. I personaly find such opinions despicable.

I&#039;ll put this as a rule of thumb - when and if the British ruling class come out and say their policies resulted in the deaths of thousands, putting terrorists in the pale, then they can talk all they want about these hate filled opinions. If this report came out of an organisation with that background, than yes it should be taken seriously, as probably is a serious study - instead of an attempt at political hackery.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indigo - Neil Robinson, who is a Muslim, prefaced the book.</p>

<p>Denis MacEoin, as far as I know is an ex-Bahai, right wing, Israel supporter. Does it matter, of course it does. You simply cannot discount people&#8217;s backgrounds, it&#8217;s not exactly conspiracy hunting. That&#8217;s why I am suprised that Neil Robinson, someone I highly respect, should preface this obviously malicious report. Policy Exchange is also a centre right, conservative hawkish think tank.</p>

<p>But saying all that, many of these quotes are rooted in Muslim heritage. Declaring enmity to disbeliever in general, even when treating them fairly/with justice within certain condiitons, would be found in any of the main tafseer books - Qurtubi, Tabari, Al-Razi etc.</p>

<p>Some of their statements on Jews and Christians, would be in todays standards, be considered &#8216;hate filled&#8217;. See what Al-Razi calls Jews, the quote is in Izhar Al-Haq (they were a religious community then). Often these traditional scholars would quote extensive scripture.</p>

<p>Agressvie warfare and subjugating disbelievers and imposing what would be considered by todays standards as disriminatory laws, does exist in mainstream Muslim scholarship. These are fully orthodox Sunnis - as you well know. Some have even declared the concensus of the companions and  the community on many of these positions.</p>

<p>Does this relate to &#8216;extremism&#8217; or terrorism? Mainly no. Most Muslims wouldn&#8217;t read these texts (few would but them and many exist in huge encyclopedias no one bothers opening) and those who do and would agree know that these laws are very much linked to an Islamic entity - as you pointed out. As for hating disbelievers, well that does not mean you kill disbelievers, decieve them or treat them unfairly. It has little to do with terrorism - which is linked and driven by foreign policy, whether Policy Exchange admit it or not.</p>

<p>However many of these opinions are indeed separatist, and I would argue it does exist as a trend in mainstream medievel texts, but there are separtist communities, who take their religious heritage seriously in other religions e.g. ultra-orthodox Jews. I personaly find such opinions despicable.</p>

<p>I&#8217;ll put this as a rule of thumb - when and if the British ruling class come out and say their policies resulted in the deaths of thousands, putting terrorists in the pale, then they can talk all they want about these hate filled opinions. If this report came out of an organisation with that background, than yes it should be taken seriously, as probably is a serious study - instead of an attempt at political hackery.</p>
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		<title>By: safiya</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1905</link>
		<dc:creator>safiya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/ijwp/mt.php/2007/10/31/hate_books_that_arent#comment-1905</guid>
		<description>Did you watch that Channel 4 drama Britz? Very depressing.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you watch that Channel 4 drama Britz? Very depressing.</p>
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