“The cruelty of Communist regimes is in my view contingent on the rise of Stalin (or someone similar, who uses intrigue to gain absolute power), rather than a feature of the ideology itself.” Perhaps the rise of someone like Stalin- or the production of leaders such as Stalin- was- as Stalin would put it- an historically inevitable product of the ideology itself.

The cruelty of Communist regimes is in my view contingent on the rise of Stalin (or someone similar, who uses intrigue to gain absolute power), rather than a feature of the ideology itself.

“You Theresites asked me what Punishment is and its purpose. I answered from me, in a human worldly sense.” We were specifically discussing the punishments allegedly imposed in hell however so it was another attempt to evade the matter.

“As for the hereafter yes it will be eternal punishment (it’s purpose being punishment)” Punishment in the form of the infliction of pain worse than humans can imagine- torture- which the saved will watch from heaven and enjoy watching.

“It - the punishment of the hereafter - also acts as a deterrent in this world for those who believe and acknowledge a divine Creator.” It also encourages them to behave more badly to those who they think commit “crimes” deserving that punishment.

“However the word cruelty does not come into it as one of the attributes of the Creator is that He is Al Adl, the Just.” Self-attributed. A being that is going to torture people for ever with pain beyond human imagination purely as punishment for alleged “crimes” is cruel and unjust because there is no proportion between the “crime” an its punishment. The question of whether the attribute “the just” is justly attributed does come into it. In turn, this raises the question of whether any of the other attributes god allegedly attributes to himself are justified.

” I believe that God created us with a purpose” And for most of the human species that purpose is to be tortured for ever for committing “crimes” that god intended them to commit before he made them.

“Your description of gleeful anticipation is innacurate.” Why? We are told that muslims should look forward eagerly to the pleasures of heaven. One of those pleasures will be watching the damned being tortured. Either believers look forward to it with pleasure and they are gleeful or they do not look forward to it with pleasure- in which case, are they actually believers? What will happen after they die to people who do not gleefully anticipate watching the damned being tortured after they die?

“Your original comment to Yusuf still stands as irrelevant, cruelty exists in non religious people too and the existance of eternal punishment after death does not encourage those who believe nor authorise them to usurp anybody’s rights or inflict cruelty [? I assume you mean punishment] in this world.” Except I did not say cruelty does not exist in nonreligious people. I said that the cruelty inherent in christianity and islam probably exacerbates the human tendency to cruelty and that it will make people who believe those religions more likely to act cruelly because they believe they have the right and duty to do so as punishment and deterrent.

“If anything it should act as a deterrent.” Except that it distinguishes between the wrong kind of cruelty and the infliction of punishment on behalf of god on those who disobey god and- they are told and believe- deserve to suffer torture worse than humans can imagine in the next world. Believers are likely to get their deterrence in in this world, either as discouragement of future sin or as a foretaste or future punishment. That, of course, is separate from the effects of the formal prescription of torture as a punishment for various “crimes” in the quran and hadith.

You Theresites asked me what Punishment is and its purpose. I answered from me, in a human worldly sense.

As for the hereafter yes it will be eternal punishment (it’s purpose being punishment) for some and temporary for others (serving the purpose for purification).

It - the punishment of the hereafter - also acts as a deterrent in this world for those who believe and acknowledge a divine Creator.

However the word cruelty does not come into it as one of the attributes of the Creator is that He is Al Adl, the Just.

The bottom line is that you and I will disagree on this simply because I believe that God created us with a purpose and you, I’m assuming do not.

Your description of gleeful anticipation is innacurate.

Your original comment to Yusuf still stands as irrelevant, cruelty exists in non religious people too and the existance of eternal punishment after death does not encourage those who believe nor authorise them to usurp anybody’s rights or inflict cruelty in this world. If anything it should act as a deterrent.

We are told that the pain suffered in hell is beyond human imagining. Every detail of the pains of hell given is said to be less than the pains will be. Part of the description of paradise consists of the fact that the people in paradise will watch the damned being tortured. It’s one of the few very specific pleasures of paradise depicted in the quran.

“The purpose of punishment can vary. In a human sense it could be retribution, a deterrent or perhaps retaliation at times. It can also be for purification or to make one think about their actions and learn from their mistakes.” If the punishment consists of tortures far worse than humans can imagine, are never going to end and are carried out after the “criminal” is dead and will never again need to be deterred from committing their “crimes” or learn not to commit them how can it serve any of these purposes but retaliation or retribution? The very fact that the punishment is going to be worse than humans can imagine and worse than any pain humans can inflict and is never going to end means that it out of all proportion for either of these purposes.

“Gleeful anticipation”- read the bits of the quran that explain how few people will avoid hell and what will be done to them there.

“By the way rape particularly for a virgin is unimaginable.” It is perfectly imaginable. If it were unimaginable it would never happen because no-one would imagine it or do it.

The purpose of punishment can vary. In a human sense it could be retribution, a deterrent or perhaps retaliation at times. It can also be for purification or to make one think about their actions and learn from their mistakes.

Btw - gleeful anticipation? Example please!

So if someone is tortured as punishment it isn’t cruelty? What do you think the purpose of punishment is? What do you think the purpose of punishment should be?

Random person: “Hey did you hear what that Fritzel guy did to his daughter? Unimaginable cruelty.”

Theresites: “Sure, but hey, have you heard what some religions believe about Hell? Thats what I call cruel.”

Random person: “Huh?”

Relevance?