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	<title>Comments on: Aisha&#8217;s Young Marriage</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage</link>
	<description>Politics, tech and media issues from a Muslim perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Indigo Jo Blogs &#8212; Review of &#8220;Does God Hate Women?&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-32065</link>
		<dc:creator>Indigo Jo Blogs &#8212; Review of &#8220;Does God Hate Women?&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jul 2010 07:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-32065</guid>
		<description>[...] I have already dealt with the matter of the marriage to A&#8217;isha (radhi Allahu &#8216;anha) in this earlier entry, and one might also see Abdurrahman Squires&#8217;s article on the subject, on which I drew for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] I have already dealt with the matter of the marriage to A&#8217;isha (radhi Allahu &#8216;anha) in this earlier entry, and one might also see Abdurrahman Squires&#8217;s article on the subject, on which I drew for [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Kafirist</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-10775</link>
		<dc:creator>Kafirist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-10775</guid>
		<description>No, I&#039;m not a Christian, Fombo.  I simply believe that childhood is precious and innocent. Adults shouldn&#039;t force sexuality upon children.  Let them grow up with loving parents and experience the joys of childhood.  I&#039;m at a loss as to how grown men, old enough to be their grandfathers, can even be sexually attracted to children, let alone have sex with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I&#8217;m not a Christian, Fombo.  I simply believe that childhood is precious and innocent. Adults shouldn&#8217;t force sexuality upon children.  Let them grow up with loving parents and experience the joys of childhood.  I&#8217;m at a loss as to how grown men, old enough to be their grandfathers, can even be sexually attracted to children, let alone have sex with them.</p>
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		<title>By: Fombo</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-10772</link>
		<dc:creator>Fombo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-10772</guid>
		<description>The Catholic Church believes from the early apocrypal writings that Jesus was conceived when she was 12yrs old. That is why the age of consent(eligible for marriage) in the vatican is 12. But the church also point out that she was bethrothed to Saint Joseph before that time, according customs on those days. Joseph is not the father of Jesus, but he married his mother when she was a woman child. ( child abuse according to modern western mind-set). Kafirist, are you a christian?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Catholic Church believes from the early apocrypal writings that Jesus was conceived when she was 12yrs old. That is why the age of consent(eligible for marriage) in the vatican is 12. But the church also point out that she was bethrothed to Saint Joseph before that time, according customs on those days. Joseph is not the father of Jesus, but he married his mother when she was a woman child. ( child abuse according to modern western mind-set). Kafirist, are you a christian?</p>
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		<title>By: Kafirist</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-10765</link>
		<dc:creator>Kafirist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-10765</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure if you&#039;re addressing your post to me, Fombo.  But I think I covered that in preceeding posts. If one believes both the New Testament and the Quran, Joseph was NOT the biological father of Jesus.

In addition, I have a hard time believing a 90 year old man could impregnate anyone, although I suppose anything is possible.

If such a thing did happen, I would have the same reaction as I do to the Aisha case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure if you&#8217;re addressing your post to me, Fombo.  But I think I covered that in preceeding posts. If one believes both the New Testament and the Quran, Joseph was NOT the biological father of Jesus.</p>

<p>In addition, I have a hard time believing a 90 year old man could impregnate anyone, although I suppose anything is possible.</p>

<p>If such a thing did happen, I would have the same reaction as I do to the Aisha case.</p>
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		<title>By: Fombo</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-10762</link>
		<dc:creator>Fombo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-10762</guid>
		<description>Mary was 12 years old and Joseph a widower 90 years old when they married. What do you say about their marriage</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary was 12 years old and Joseph a widower 90 years old when they married. What do you say about their marriage</p>
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		<title>By: Kafirist</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-10758</link>
		<dc:creator>Kafirist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-10758</guid>
		<description>I believe the Quran says the same:

19:16 And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,   How many angels talked to Mary?  
19:17 And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.   
19:18 She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God- fearing.   
19:19 He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.   
19:20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste ?   
19:21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.   
19:22 And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the Quran says the same:</p>

<p>19:16 And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,   How many angels talked to Mary?<br />
19:17 And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.<br />
19:18 She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God- fearing.<br />
19:19 He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.<br />
19:20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste ?<br />
19:21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.<br />
19:22 And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.</p>
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		<title>By: Kafirist</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-10754</link>
		<dc:creator>Kafirist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-10754</guid>
		<description>Nice research, Fombo. I&#039;m not a Christian apologist, but Christians could counter with (source: Wikipedia):

Saint Joseph (Hebrew יוֹסֵף, also known as Joseph of the House of David, Joseph the Betrothed, Joseph of Nazareth, or Joseph the Worker) is known from the New Testament as the husband of Mary, mother of Jesus.[1] Although according to Christian tradition he was not the biological father of Jesus, he acted as his foster-father[2][3][4] and as head of the Holy Family. 

Hence we&#039;re back to the virgin birth thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice research, Fombo. I&#8217;m not a Christian apologist, but Christians could counter with (source: Wikipedia):</p>

<p>Saint Joseph (Hebrew יוֹסֵף, also known as Joseph of the House of David, Joseph the Betrothed, Joseph of Nazareth, or Joseph the Worker) is known from the New Testament as the husband of Mary, mother of Jesus.[1] Although according to Christian tradition he was not the biological father of Jesus, he acted as his foster-father[2][3][4] and as head of the Holy Family. </p>

<p>Hence we&#8217;re back to the virgin birth thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Fombo</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-10750</link>
		<dc:creator>Fombo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-10750</guid>
		<description>Mary and Joseph

The most famous marriage in Christianity is no doubt that of Mary, Jesus’ mother, with Joseph. While the following details are not in the canonical Gospels in the Bible, it appears from other early Christian writings (known as apocryphal writings) that Mary was twelve years old when the temple elders decided to find a husband for her. They selected the husband by drawing lots, and Joseph whom they chose was an elderly man, being according to some accounts ninety years old. The husband was selected and Mary was handed over to him, and she played no part in his selection.

These accounts are summed up in the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, which is available online, as follows:

    “It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph’s marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children … A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph …” [13] (Bolding is mine.)

Although these apocryphal accounts are not now accepted by many Christians, and the Catholic Encyclopedia says that they “are void of authority”, yet it also speaks of their influence as follows:

    “they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of the Lord’s brothers; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God.”

However, these accounts are accepted by the Eastern churches. The website of the Ukrainian Orthodoxy has an article on this subject entitled An Elderly Joseph which agrees with the presentation in the apocryphal writings “of Joseph as an elderly man, a widower with adult children”. It concludes:

    “The Christian East’s picture of Joseph as a courageous, faithful, God-centred elderly widower rings true.” [14]

We give below, as Appendix, a quotation from one of these apocryphal books, The Infancy Gospel of James, describing how Mary’s husband was selected.

While the Western Christian churches may not accept these accounts as authentic, the Eastern churches in Europe do accept that Mary was 12 years old and Joseph a widower 90 years old when they married. Moreover, there is nothing in the Gospels of the New Testament to contradict these accounts, and the Gospel stories are not at all inconsistent with these ages for Mary and Joseph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary and Joseph</p>

<p>The most famous marriage in Christianity is no doubt that of Mary, Jesus’ mother, with Joseph. While the following details are not in the canonical Gospels in the Bible, it appears from other early Christian writings (known as apocryphal writings) that Mary was twelve years old when the temple elders decided to find a husband for her. They selected the husband by drawing lots, and Joseph whom they chose was an elderly man, being according to some accounts ninety years old. The husband was selected and Mary was handed over to him, and she played no part in his selection.</p>

<p>These accounts are summed up in the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, which is available online, as follows:</p>

<p>“It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph’s marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children … A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph …” [13] (Bolding is mine.)</p>

<p>Although these apocryphal accounts are not now accepted by many Christians, and the Catholic Encyclopedia says that they “are void of authority”, yet it also speaks of their influence as follows:</p>

<p>“they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of the Lord’s brothers; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God.”</p>

<p>However, these accounts are accepted by the Eastern churches. The website of the Ukrainian Orthodoxy has an article on this subject entitled An Elderly Joseph which agrees with the presentation in the apocryphal writings “of Joseph as an elderly man, a widower with adult children”. It concludes:</p>

<p>“The Christian East’s picture of Joseph as a courageous, faithful, God-centred elderly widower rings true.” [14]</p>

<p>We give below, as Appendix, a quotation from one of these apocryphal books, The Infancy Gospel of James, describing how Mary’s husband was selected.</p>

<p>While the Western Christian churches may not accept these accounts as authentic, the Eastern churches in Europe do accept that Mary was 12 years old and Joseph a widower 90 years old when they married. Moreover, there is nothing in the Gospels of the New Testament to contradict these accounts, and the Gospel stories are not at all inconsistent with these ages for Mary and Joseph.</p>
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		<title>By: Kafirist</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-10706</link>
		<dc:creator>Kafirist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-10706</guid>
		<description>Mr. Jamal, I can find nothing on the web that says that Saudi Arabia did in fact pass laws to raise the age of consent to 18. I could only find the following article:

May 4, 2009 RIYADH (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia MAY ban marriage for girls below 18...

The article continues with:

Many Saudi clerics, including the kingdom&#039;s chief cleric Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Al al-Sheikh, endorse the practice of marrying underage girls, arguing that in doing so they avoid spinsterhood or the temptation of engaging in relationships outside the wedlock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Jamal, I can find nothing on the web that says that Saudi Arabia did in fact pass laws to raise the age of consent to 18. I could only find the following article:</p>

<p>May 4, 2009 RIYADH (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia MAY ban marriage for girls below 18&#8230;</p>

<p>The article continues with:</p>

<p>Many Saudi clerics, including the kingdom&#8217;s chief cleric Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Al al-Sheikh, endorse the practice of marrying underage girls, arguing that in doing so they avoid spinsterhood or the temptation of engaging in relationships outside the wedlock.</p>
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		<title>By: Kafirist</title>
		<link>http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2009/06/05/aishas_young_marriage#comment-10684</link>
		<dc:creator>Kafirist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/?p=1872#comment-10684</guid>
		<description>Hi Fombo,

I appreciate that in ancient times marriage to young girls was not uncommon.  Apparently, this was often done to secure bonds between families and tribes.  As you point out, this is not the same thing as having sex with a child.  Aisha, as you know, married Muhammad when she was 6 or 7.  (Islam uses the lunar calendar so the age would be different if the solar calendar is used.) Muhammad waited until she was 9 before consummating the marriage. Why he waited is moot and I&#039;ll let you come to your own conclusions.

As to my opinion about child sex in Sub-Sahara Africa, etc:  They are backward, ignorant misogynists who typically treat women in the same manner as they treat their cattle and goats.   

I suppose the politically correct approach would be that they are an emerging civilization maintaining its rich and diverse cultural history. However, I tend not to obfuscate things with political correctness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Fombo,</p>

<p>I appreciate that in ancient times marriage to young girls was not uncommon.  Apparently, this was often done to secure bonds between families and tribes.  As you point out, this is not the same thing as having sex with a child.  Aisha, as you know, married Muhammad when she was 6 or 7.  (Islam uses the lunar calendar so the age would be different if the solar calendar is used.) Muhammad waited until she was 9 before consummating the marriage. Why he waited is moot and I&#8217;ll let you come to your own conclusions.</p>

<p>As to my opinion about child sex in Sub-Sahara Africa, etc:  They are backward, ignorant misogynists who typically treat women in the same manner as they treat their cattle and goats.   </p>

<p>I suppose the politically correct approach would be that they are an emerging civilization maintaining its rich and diverse cultural history. However, I tend not to obfuscate things with political correctness.</p>
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