When to use the K word

As long as I’ve been a Muslim, there has always been a division among Muslims as to the use of the word kaafir, the Arabic word for unbeliever. Some, particularly born Muslims from non-English-speaking backgrounds and members of certain hardline persuasions, use it very freely. Others find it derogatory, whether or not they are aware of the racial connotations it has acquired. I tend not to use it on this blog, and the majority of its appearances here are in comments, quotes from others, and references to certain sects rather than non-Muslims in general. However, I take the position that, when using it in English, there is a difference between using it in reference to enemies of Islam or the community and using it to refer to non-Muslims in general.

Most English-speakers who have heard of the term think of it as a term of racial abuse, such as it was used by white South Africans against blacks. The origin may have been from their Malay indentured servants; however, I also read a book by the British explorer Richard Burton, who compared the Somalis to the “kaffirs”, presumably meaning black Africans who were not Muslim. Whatever its origins, the term is understood now as a racist term and even those who might hear a Muslim use it as such will probably think that there is a hatred behind it similar to that of racism (often correctly). If black, they might well take it as a straightforward racial slur; if not, they will wonder why you use it on them.

On Monday this week, this article by the columnist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown appeared in the Independent. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown comes from an Ismaili background, as she freely admits — in this article, she calls herself a “Shia Muslim”, but anyone who has seen pictures of Shi’ite women in Iran, or any other Shi’ite population (Lebanon, Iraq), will know that she is at variance with their practice. She writes this about Muslim female dress:

Islam in all its diverse forms entitles believers to a personal relationship with Allah – it cuts out middlemen, one reason its appeal extended to so many across the world. You can seek advice from learned scholars and imams, but they cannot come between your faith and the light of God. Today control freaks who claim they have a special line to the Almighty have turned our world dark. Neo-conservative Islamic codes spread like swine flu, an infection few seem able to resist.

The disease is progressive. It started 20 years ago with the hijab, donned then as a defiant symbol of identity, now a conscript’s uniform. Then came the jilbab, the cloak, fought over in courts when schoolgirls were manipulated into claiming it as an essential Islamic garment. If so, hell awaits the female leaders of Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Soon, children as young as four were kitted up in cloaks and headscarves (“so they get used to it, and then later wear the full thing,” said a teacher to me who works at a Muslim girls’ school) and now for the graduation gown, a full burqa, preferably with dark glasses.

Of course, the first half of the first paragraph is a lie when coming from that author. Ismailis (she is an Aga Khan follower) believe in infallible imams. In fact, it was one of their imams, as she tells it, who told their women to stop covering their heads, supposedly because it represented “progress”, no doubt really because it represented what their rich white friends were doing. An infallible spiritual leader and a direct relationship with God are not really compatible. In mainstream Islam, scholars are not spiritual intermediaries but interpreters of the law, and their rulings have some variety; they are not a monolithic mass telling women to put on “burqas”.

Refuting her particular claims here is not my purpose, however; I have already posted more than enough words to refute ignorant and dishonest anti-hijab polemicists. The point is that this woman has a long history of using her platform in the popular press to backbite and slander Muslims, and particularly women. She uses anecdotes and broad-brush, unsubstantiated claims to paint observant Muslim women as collaborators with wife-beaters and genital mutilators, or at best as unthinking collaborators in their own oppression. She is one of a particular variety of “ethnic” feminists who advance a kind of aggressive liberalism with a brown face, and uses a spurious “I’m a Muslim and …” claim to back it up, knowing that her audience will not question it as their definition of a Muslim is different from a Muslim’s definition.

Their claims to be feminists or defenders of women’s rights are, in any case, revealed to be specious when we consider that the right to wear hijab is not really what is under attack; what is at stake is the right to wear it — or, for that matter, to dress in any other way which goes against white norms, given that common black women’s hair styles have been an issue in the workplace also, in some places — and still have the same rights to education and employment as the majority population. That isn’t a priority for the ethnic liberal feminists, who are clearly annoyed that Muslim women reject their leadership, as clearly expressed by Rahila Gupta in the Guardian, with hyperbole about the hijab being “soaked in blood”, last week.

People took umbrage when I called the windbag Alibhai-Brown a “vile kafir hypocrite” on DeenPort the other day. I called her a hypocrite because of her dishonesty, even though her behaviour is different to that exhibited by Ibn Ubayy and his set in Madinah; it consists of approaching powerful non-Muslims and saying “look at me, I am a true Muslim” and egging them on to clamp down on normal Islamic behaviour, telling them that it isn’t Islamic, even though most Muslims know that it is. I called her vile for pretty much the same reason, and I called her a kafir because she is, and always was, despite her claims. I was pretty astounded by the hostility shown by some respondents when I used harsh words on her, particularly given the contempt she clearly displays for us — the comparison of the increasing popularity of hijab to the spread of swine flu should give anyone a clue. The truth is harsh, and in any case, I would not have used the same words on someone who didn’t claim to be Muslim.

We are not talking about the kindly tea lady in the local hospital waiting room here. The non-Muslims she backbites us to are not the old folk at the bingo hall. This woman is an enemy with a poisonous tongue and pen whose hostility to mainstream Islam has been common knowledge in the community for decades. If we look at who her friends are, we find Shaaz Mahboob, a character known by Muslims on Facebook for his “anti-mullah” sentiments, and Taj Hargey, a similar character who “got lucky” when a Muslim newspaper assigned him to the Qadianis rather than the equally faithless anti-hadeeth movement ([1], [2]). That they are not Muslims in itself is, of course, their business. The problem I have is when they pretend to be Muslim for as long as it takes to stab Muslims in the back by making dishonest claims about Islam and Muslims in the national media.

It is not as if I go round using the word “kafir” all the time. Generally, I do not use it in English, the only language I speak properly. My friend once told me that he would not call his son “Fakhr-ud-Din”, even though he liked the name, because of its vulgar connotations in English; if the Arabic word for unbeliever meant the same, or something banal like cheese-grater or doorknob, we would not use it either. Even in Arabic, other words are sometimes used: the names of the actual religions, or words like “others”. In this case, I used it on a person I consider an enemy of Muslims not because of her belief but because of her words which have been frequently treacherous, dishonest and slanderous. Why are some Muslims reluctant to call the enemy by his, or her, name?

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  • http://www.yahyabirt.com Yahya Birt

    Dear Yusuf,

    As-salamu alaykum,

    I have to disagree here, I don’t think members of the public have the moral license to pronounce takfir on anyone else, even if the ulema provide us with definitions of what constitutes orthodoxy. It’s even more disastrous when states feel they have to take up and defend a notion of orthodoxy and anathematise groups as heretical or individuals as heretics. I’m glad I don’t live in such a state, and I assume that you are too.

    Wa s-salam, Yahya

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ Indigo Jo

    As-Salaamu ‘alaikum, Surely this is a matter of a sect, like the Qadianis, rather making a judgement on someone who says something outrageous? I’ve always heard that the Agakhani Ismailis are non-Muslims and I’ve never heard otherwise, and that is why I called her one.

  • http://www.yahyabirt.com Yahya Birt

    Wa s-salam,

    General statements may be made about the beliefs defended by the religious leaders of such-and-such a group, but there is great reluctance to apply the logic that “if person x is a member of group y, person x must ipso facto share all the characteristics of the teachings of group y”, which is why — as far as I know — you’ll never find a mufti or any other authority issuing a fatwa on a named individual on that basis. Best never to tread in these waters, Yusuf, insha’Allah. At the end of the day judging between faith and unbelief is Allah’s affair, not ours. Yasmin Alibhai Brown has called herself a “Muslim” and we should take her word in good faith. Of course you are well within your rights to dispute with her on other issues, but not on whether you think she’s Muslim or not.

    Wa s-salam, Yahya

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ Indigo Jo

    As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    See this from Sidi Faraz Rabbani, with a run-down of what they believe from a former member: Is it valid to marry an Ismaili?.

    >There is scholarly consensus (ijma`) that Ismailis are not Muslims, because of their denial of numerous things that are established by decisive texts of the Qur’an and Sunna, and are known to be necessary parts of Islam. > >As such, it is not valid to marry an Ismaili man or woman. > >Wassalam, >Faraz Rabbani

  • ali

    Ali Bhai Brown is a non-muslim and you were right to call her such. There is no problem using it when you are sure that the person is not a muslim.

    The problem is the word Kafir is taken far too lightly these days, especially by those who lack knowledge, and therefore has been reduced to the level of a slur. It is by the ignorant to condemn anyone they don’t like. Hence people might have thought you were insulting her (especially as some muslims don’t know what these Ismailis are about).

    The likes of Hargey are on a campaign to eradicate the word Kafir and with the siege mentality there is amongst us I guess people are afraid. This word comes in the Qur’an, so when will those who have no Iman realise that they will never succeed in removing it from the muslim lexicon?

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ Indigo Jo

    Ali: Hargey has successfully sued people for calling him a Qadiani, as I alluded to in my article. The beliefs he has expressed on his website (MECO are deviant ones for sure, but not Qadiani ones although it’s true that the Hargeys of Cape Town are Qadianis.

  • Jones

    I fully support your stance Indigo, I saw the DeenPort over sensitive politically correct response. But she is a kafira as long as she is an Ismaili and there is ijma’ on the issue of Islamili’s according to Sunni scholars.

    She is a disgusting evil, vile and hypocritical woman who is a murtada (if she even can be one) out to destroy Muslim communities and women in Islam. She is a coconut through and through with distaste and disgust for her own skin and heritage.

  • http://www.yahyabirt.com Yahya Birt

    Ali: Instead of casting aspersions about people’s psychological states or knowledge of Islam, whey not address yourself to the particular point that I made. I haven’t seen a single fatwa from any Sunni scholar I know living here in the West naming a particular individual as a kafir. Why is it that don’t they go in for that?

    Plus private individuals are not supposed to go around calling other private individuals who say they are Muslims kafirs. Where is the fiqh that says a private individual is within their rights to do that?

    Sidi Yusuf: As for the fatwa you’ve cited, it has nothing to do with the point that I made. It’s in answer to a question about marriage.

  • http://minaretmuse.wordpress.com Minaretmuse

    Asalaam Aleikum. I don’t like what Ms Alibhai-Brown spouts either. Nor the fact that she uses her Muslim cultural background as a fig-leaf to legitimise her attacks on Muslims. That said, I have to agree with Yahya’s comment above. I don’t believe her (mis)behaviour justifies calling her a kafir, especially if she continues to self-identify as Muslim. The ‘k-word’ should be used with caution not only because of how its been abused (Khawarij), but also because of the hadith that warns us that when you call a Muslim a kafir it is true of one of you. Isn’t that reason enough for any reluctance?

  • http://jamalicon.wordpress.com/ Jamal

    We should be able to speak our mind. She is a Kafir and there is no doubt about that. I don’t like politically correct response of some muslim

  • http://unbeguiled.blogspot.com/ UnBeguiled

    It seems that the original post as well as all the commenters fail to understand the heart of the matter.

    You guys are falling into the trap of “The No-True Scotsman Fallacy”. It goes like this:

    A Scotsman would never put sugar on his porridge.

    “But my uncle is a Scotsman, and he puts sugar on his porridge”

    Well, then he’s not a TRUE Scotsmen.

    So you guys have adopted this confused way of talking and reasoning. You need to decide up front who is a proper Muslim and who is not. You need to decide among yourselves what beliefs or behaviors define a person as being a Muslim. You cannot later on shift the definition and declare them a kaafir.

    I will make a prediction. Muslims will never agree among themselves about this matter. All religious communities share this problem with you, so it is not a problem exclusive to Islam.

    Christians likewise are always declaring this or that person not a “true” Christian. But Christians, like Muslims, have no way of arriving at a consensus. This is because all religions are silly non-sense.

    Here endeth the lesson.

    • Kaafir
  • http://www.yahyabirt.com Yahya Birt

    Jamal: Not politically correct, Islamically correct: self-appointed wielders of takfir are an anathema to our tradition, a bid`a dalala of our day and age.

  • ali

    Yahya, you are absolutley right - people should not go around calling muslims kafir - however in this case it’s not her articles that make her a kafir. It is her belief in the ideals fo Ismailism. It is widely known that they are out of the fold of Islam, so any who professes to adhere to their doctrine automatically is not considered a muslim. You don’t need a fatwa to work that one out.

  • Jones

    At the least YAB has kufr beliefs, since she claims to be an Ismaili. Therefore someone who holds kufr beliefs is a kafir. It doesn’t matter what scholars have said about particular individuals or not, but we judge her by her actions and words and her actions and words show that she is an enemy of Islam and the Muslims. Although her actions are not that of a kafir but her belief in Ismaili’sm. Which is NOT Islam and those who reject Sunni Islam are not Muslim.

    As Ali said, we dont even need a fatwa to work that one out. The fatawa are already out there to clearly point out what Ahmadiya and Islamilia sects are, the are kuffar.

  • http://www.yahyabirt.com Yahya Birt

    Ali, Jones: Actually no, with all respect, you need to look carefully at the mainline Sunni tradition and you’ll find that the ulema were very reluctant to make the sorts of arguments you are making so freely. They used to make many excuses and exercise husn al-dhann (giving the benefit of the doubt) before declaring any individual definitively a kafir.

    Let me give you some examples:

    (1) Mere membership of a group whose beliefs are held to be heretical does not entail that all members of that group as individuals are heretics. Substantive and separate evidence is required in each individual case, not an assumption of collective heresy.

    (2) A distinction is made between the religious leaders and the laity of a group held to be heretical.

    (3) More radically, a statement held be heretical and made by an individual is not automatically held to make someone a heretic. The ulema would normally make some kind of circumlocution and say something like “such and such was a statement of unbelief” and not that “so-and-so is an unbeliever”.

    (4) If any statement of heresy can plausibly be interpreted in a benign way then that should be upheld.

    In general, takfir is to be warded off by means of ambiguities, making all possible excuses, and giving the benefit of the doubt. It is certainly not modern political correctness.

    Above and beyond that what legal training or authority do you have to casually name an individual a kafir who says they are Muslim? This is sickness and a disease of intolerance that perverts the classical Sunni tradition. Sunnis historically never endorsed official state inquisitions (in fact they resisted them like Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal) and cases where individuals were declared heretics were extremely rare (by and large the response of the ulema after the case of Abu Mansur al-Hallaj was to exercise more caution in these cases); yet, in more recent times, that has sadly begun to change. We just don’t need to go there. Better that we just refrain from this altogether.

    Even the ulema have been very circumspect, then who are you and me to jump onto the takfir throne and start issuing edicts? The whole thing is repugnant.

    Wa s-salam, Yahya

  • LeedsLad

    I never called a person “Kaffir” in my life except reading it in the Quran and Hadiths.

    The idea of God has existed with us from the very same day man tried to figure out ideas/superstitions. Where we differ is the art of Godly evolution where we all agree the “Mysterious force”, but have different ideas about what God is whether he/she has many hands, handsome, invincible etc.

    So we are all beleivers, and the K word is just plain stupid.

  • http://suspectpaki.com Shahid

    as salaamu `alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh brothers and sisters.

    As some of you know, I reverted from Qadianism several years ago. Qadianism is kufr. I didn’t arrive at this judgement myself. I studied awfully hard and even then, relied on the unanimous consensus of the `ulema on this matter.

    I don’t call people kaafirs now. It’s a dangerous road to go down. I do still unabashedly refer to Qadianism as kufr. In my weaker past, I might have referred to individuals within Qadianism as kaafirs, but no more. They might be kaafirs for all I know, but it’s not for me to say. I will resolutely maintain that if they are following Qadianism, they are following a system of kufr.

    I’m torn on Alibhai-Brown. She clearly writes some very anti-Muslim stuff and it hurts, I’m so tired of these rent-a-Muslim-bashing-darkie types like Manji, Mirza Masroor, Quilliam et al., but I don’t know anything about her theology and even if I did, I wouldn’t feel myself qualified to call her a kaafir.

    Further, we need to distinguish acts of kufr from the label of kufr applied wholesale to a person. Some people might inadvertently commit acts of kufr, and I sincerely hope (but don’t know for sure) that Allah (SWT) will be merciful to those people.

    Finally, am I wrong in thinking that ‘munafiq’ is a far more dangerous label? After all, aren’t the munafiqeen promised the lowest hell?

    Oh and BTW brother Yahya, I did write to the Amman people about Qadianism’s standing within their frame of reference and they ignored me. I also wrote to the City Circle and they ignored me too. I’d be interested in your opinion on Qadianism, if you are happy to share that.

    Wassalaam, Shahid

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ Indigo Jo

    I think we are getting into dangerous territory here. While I suppose it’s possible for someone to be from a Qadiani background and have heard of Mirza as something other than a prophet, generally speaking, someone who follows a religion adjudged by the scholars, particularly by consensus, to be “not Islam” is not a Muslim and therefore a kafir. We do not have to go round calling them that; what matters is that we don’t regard them as Muslims, or doubt that they are not Muslims (and therefore kafirs), because to doubt that is itself kufr. A kafir is not merely someone who consciously rejects Islam because, for example, he doesn’t want to give up the Torah or he doesn’t want to take guidance off his younger brother’s son. The word kafara means simply to disbelieve or reject and applies equally to disbelief in untruth, e.g. false idols and namima (gossip). If someone disbelieves or rejects Islam (even if he believes in something he calls Islam, but isn’t), he is not a Muslim, and therefore a kafir.

    As I understand it, Agakhani Ismailism bears much less resemblance to Islam than Qadianism, which maintains mostly Sunni patterns of worship. Ismailis don’t do the salaat and their “imams” can and do abrogate established Shar’i rulings. The ruling I cited by Sidi Faraz was very clear cut: you cannot marry them, men or women, because they are not Muslims. It’s not a borderline case as with the Twelver Shi’a who some say have beliefs which are kufr, or with some of the old heretics like the Qadariyya and some of the Mu’tazila.

  • ‘Abd ul-Ghaffûr

    As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

    Jazakallah khayran for your writings—I enjoy them!

    Has Alibhai-Brown explicitly stated that she is a follower of the Ismaili sect? Also, has she stated things contrary to what are known to be obligatory parts of Islam—Sunni or Shia—and would equal kufr if believed to be non-obligatory?

  • http://suspectpaki.com Shahid

    I completely get that brother, and in general, I do say that “Ahmadis are not considered Muslims”. I even said that in my recent talk (IIRC). However, I am careful not to call individuals kaafirs nowadays. I’d prefer to say to them “Ahmadism is kufr” or “you’re following a religion that is not Islam”. It just seems more productive. When they get a bit hardcore with me, I have in the past used the term, but I’m not so sure I’d jump to it now.

    Am I just muddying the waters here?

    Funnily enough, I met with Sheikh Ahmad Saad who said under some set of circumstances too complicated for me to understand, the Ismailis could be considered Muslim where the Qadianis definitely could not. I should have recorded that conversation better I guess…

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ Indigo Jo

    As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    Abd ul-Ghaffur: Yes, she has explicitly stated that she is part of that sect. You will find a link in the above article which says it.

  • Random Guy

    Let me not generalise, so I will first and foremost state that this is my point of view on this matter.

    We have a very simple litmus test of declaring someone a believer or non-believer. There is the shahada, and then there are the 5 pillars. If an individual declares they are muslim and is outside these boundaries, then they already are approaching the state of kufr. Can anyone correct me if I am over-simplifying?

    Yahya does bring forward an important point though, and I think it illustrates the more conventional form of dis-association used by Muslims today (i.e. calling someone a kaffir) as opposed to the practice of it, and why it may be the incorrect way of going about things.

    All in all, interesting discussion!

    Wa’salaam.

  • http://www.yahyabirt.com Yahya Birt

    Salams, the Amman Declaration of 2004 was also meant to be a process of dialogue and reconciliation among mainline Sunni, Ithna ‘Ash’ari, Ibadi and Zaydi ulema as well as Sufis and Salafis, being a restatement of who is a Muslim, what the limits of takfir are, what the fundamental teachings and principles of Islam are, and who can issue authoritative religious rulings. I note with interest that the website has reproduced the following documents:

    http://ammanmessage.com/newEndorse.pdf

    A letter of application to become a signatory to the Amman Declaration from the Lahore Ahmadiyya Islamic Society dated March 2009.

    http://ammanmessage.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=42

    A letter from the Aga Khan who was asked to participate in the first main conference to promote the Amman Process in July 2005 which is also appended to the website.

    Of course such high-level deliberations may have their supporters and detractors. I personally prefer to in principle endorse such a process (it’s obviously preferrable to intolerant and sometimes violent takfirism), while leaving the theological niceties of the process to the learned and the wise.

    I can only end by echoing Random Guy’s point that I can’t see what purpose is served by labelling so-and-so an kafir. It’s the ultimate coversation-stopper of course, but the arguments about the substantive issues at hand will continue nonetheless.

    Wa s-salam, Yahya

  • Aisha

    Salaams. I found out about your blog while watching ‘Wired Warriors’ on The Radical Middle way. Just a brief comment: This is an interesting post. I agree that Yasmin A B has said and continues to say some detestable things about Islam and muslims, but I wouldn’t go as far as labelling someone a Kafir, I have to agree with Yahya Birt on this,he has laid out the traditional sunni way of going about such a process. Belief systems can be out of line with Islam but singling out individuals is dangerous. You say, ”However, I take the position that, when using it in English, there is a difference between using it in reference to enemies of Islam or the community and using it to refer to non-Muslims in general.” I take it you are trying to say you wouldn’t refer to non-muslims by using the word kafir, but how long until the black and white turn to grey and we over step the mark? Anyways, this blog is quite cool and I will be checking it regularly!

  • http://suspectpaki.com Shahid

    Brother Yahya, what’s your position on the Qadianis? How much do you know about them? Is it OK to believe in new prophets after Rasulullah (saw) in your book?

  • http://suspectpaki.com Shahid

    I ask because you’ve cited a PDF that is written by the Lahoris, who don’t consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet (despite his own claims of prophethood. See the latest post on thecult.info/blog for his declaration in a book I recently found that the Ahmadiyya has suppressed). They are a small off-shoot of Qadianism and when talking about the Ahmadiyya, people almost never mean the Lahoris.

    You might consider this arcane and trivial, but they are a problem because they consider all mainstream Muslims to be kaafir, because we don’t believe in their prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

    It’s definitely not esoterica to me!

    Wassalaam, Shahid

  • http://www.yahyabirt.com Yahya Birt

    Salams, dear Shahid, the finality of Prophethood resting with the Muhammadan nation is a cornerstone of orthodox belief. Wa s-salam, Yahya

  • http://suspectpaki.com Shahid

    Dearest brother Yahya,

    You are very careful about what you write, for which you have my respect. You didn’t appear to be unequivocal though and I hope you won’t mind if I ask you to be.

    You say that it is a cornerstone of orthodox belief that kahtmenabuwwah rests with the “Muhammadan nation”. Now whilst most Muslims would read that as with “those who follow Muhammad (saw)” Qadianis, and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in particular, called himself the “messiah of the Muhammadan nation in the same way that Jesus was the messiah of the Mosaic nation”. He said that he returned in “the spirit of Jesus” and then went on piecemeal to claim full prophethood too but “with the shar`iah of Muhammad”.

    He twisted every conceivable teaching to arrive at blasphemy and so we need to be utterly unequivocal. I apologise for being pushy on this, but if we’re not clear, it gives the followers an “out”, which they constantly exploit to trick innocent Muslims into believing in their heretical dogma.

    Around a hundred years ago, my forefathers were tricked into following this charlatan who was in the habit of issuing death threats to his opponents. Now I am working hard to show the descendants of the deceived to see the error of their forefathers’ ways and insha’Allah, return to Islam.

    It might be important to you to know that I’m not a takfeerist. I’m very inclusive by nature. When Qadianis mockingly ask me “which hellbound sect” I have joined, my answer is “which sect was Muhammad (saw)? That is my sect”

    Jazakallah khayr for your patience akhi.

    Wassalaam, Shahid

  • Old Pickler

    It’s a nasty word, no better than “nigger”.

  • Thersites

    No word is nasty in itself. I always think of “believer” as short for “believer as in believe that and you’ll believe anything”.

  • ‘Abd ul-Ghaffûr

    Kafir is definitely not in the same league as nigger. Not by a long shot.

  • http://www.yahyabirt.com Yahya Birt

    Salams, well by “the finality of Prophethood resting with the Muhammadan nation is a cornerstone of orthodox belief” is meant that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final and last prophet (nabi) or messenger (rasul) sent to humanity with revelation (wahy) and a way (shari`ah) is a fundamental of Islamic belief. Wa s-salam, Yahya

  • Random Guy

    Nonsense - but as you are non-muslim it is to be expected that your interpretation is coloured by the mainstream media coverage of Islam.

  • Random Guy

    Sorry, the above comment was made in response to Old Pickler, when he said “It’s a nasty word, no better than “nigger”.”

  • http://suspectpaki.com Shahid

    Salaam Yahya, yes, it’s me with the jurist’s handbook trying to badger the witness for the defence, hoping again that you won’t mind.

    Again your statement gives Ahmadis a way to include their prophet into your definition (even it is contrived beyond the imaginings of ordinary folk like me).

    Here’s why - and it might just be the simple matter of punctuation offering some clarity or precision… “the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final and last prophet (nabi) or messenger (rasul) sent to humanity with revelation (wahy) and a way (shari`ah)”

    The ummah of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad hold that he came without a new message or shar`ia and thus his “prophethood” is “contained” within the “seal of Muhammad”. I know, sounds hugely contrived, especially when Mr. Mirza himself claimed wahi and also modified the shar’ia. The problem with his “work” is that it is so confused, it’s possible to derive multiple, opposing meanings within it.

    Ahmadis (Qadianis) would take what you have said and twist it to support their position.

    So I will ask plainly in a way that doesn’t force you into a corner on whether or not you believe Isa (as) will return, if somebody after Muhammad (saw) claims prophethood, does that take them out of the fold of the Muslim nation?

    Wassalaam, Shahid

  • http://www.yahyabirt.com Yahya Birt

    Shahid, as-salamu alaykum,

    Anyone who sincerely believes and declares that a messenger (nabi) or prophet (rasul) has come after Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) is, as I understand mainline Islamic teaching to state, not counted as a Muslim, once the normal allowances I described before have been exhausted. The return of Isa (peace be upon him) is not included in this because he will not bring a new way (Shariah) or new revelation (wahy), but confirm the Prophethood and Messengership of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace).

    However, I do believe that this is a matter for the state to get involved in at all, but a matter for religious scholarship and private opinion. The hounding of certain religious minorities in Pakistan either by the state or by zealous and violent vigilante groups is not something I would like to see repeated there or anywhere else. Ultimately the matter of belief or unbelief is one that is truly only known by God.

    Wa s-salam, Yahya

  • Thersites

    “Kafir is definitely not in the same league as nigger. Not by a long shot.”

    So, abd-ul Ghafur, calling someone “an enemy of Muslims not …because of …words which have been … treacherous, dishonest and slanderous.” is definitely not in the same league as misspelling the Latin word for black.

  • http://suspectpaki.com Shahid

    Dear brother Yahya, wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

    MashaAllah. I am impressed at how carefully you tread, with respect, with evidences, with consideration and at all times conscious of ijma`. Barakallah feek. We have made some progress together, and I appreciate your patience.

    Before progressing to your points, let me first make clear that I am utterly against persecution of religious minorities, as all Muslims should be. I should, however, respectfully point out that the persecution of the Ahmadiyya is the most overplayed card in the history of any fitna to have afflicted the Muslim ummah. We can elaborate on that at another time and place if you wish, but for now, let us accept that persecution is utterly wrong and look at the wrongs of fraudulently claiming the exclusive franchise to Islam later in this message.

    The return of Isa (as) is one of the favourite talking points of the Ahmadiyya. As soon as you say “The return of Isa (peace be upon him) is not included in this because he will not bring a new way (Shariah) or new revelation (wahy), but confirm the Prophethood and Messengership of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace).” the Qadiani Ahmadiyya have you. They say that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came in the spirit of `Isa (as) to confirm the nabuwwah and risalah of Rasulullah (saw). Now what? (There is an answer to this too, but I fear I might be outstaying my welcome on brother Yusuf’s blog)

    Pakistan is a special case in that it was the home of the Ahmadiyya (It is now London, ostensibly for persecution reasons, but that doesn’t stop a large proportion of the Ahmadiyya from living in Pakistan.). The Qadianis were gaining influence in government, but had split loyalty. One the one hand, they were (and are) loyal to Pakistan. I have seen this first hand. On the other hand, they are loyal to the Mirza family and their interests. Since they believe that Muslims are kafirun and out of the pale of Islam, they side with the enemies of the state too. They play both sides of the game.

    They have a centre in Kababeer, in occupied Palestine and have free movement across the land occupied by the Zionist entity, unlike our Palestinian brothers and sisters. They are free to broadcast their divisive propaganda from Kababeer too. Whenever there is negative press about Muslims, they put out a press release making themselves out to be peace-loving, model citizens, always in stark contrast to the “bloodthirsty, barbaric Muslims”. When the BNP won a seat in the European Parliament in Sheffield, the Qadianis sent a letter of congratulations. Last year they invited Shimon Peres as a guest of honour to their centre in Kababeer for iftar, whilst a Palestinian student was being beaten in a holding cell for refusing to shake the hand of the war criminal. Since they consider us barbaric kafirun, they will always side with our opponents.

    Now whilst I don’t think religion is necessarily the preserve of government, when an entity is causing disorder in the land, like the Qadianis were with some of their odd activities, somebody has to declare that black is black and white is white. You can’t bottle beer and sell it as Coca-Cola. That is what the Qadianis do, whilst accusing the Coca-Cola company of selling beer. Do you think Coca-Cola should just put out an ad saying “this is the real thing, that’s not”? Or do you think Coca-Cola will seek an injunction against the Qadianis and ensure their bottling operations are shut down? You see, other minorities call themselves Christians, or Hindus, or whatever, but they don’t call themselves Muslims and they are relatively unmolested. (Relatively). But Qadianis claim to be Muslim, whilst calling us kuffar! SubhanAllah! The ijma</i> of the <i>ulema in 1974 was unanimous. That was the “real thing” advert. The government held secret hearings (transcripts are now available) and declared the Qadianis (and Lahoris, perhaps over-zealously) a non-Muslim minority, that was the injunction. Finally, in 1984, there was Ordnance 20, which was probably a step too far, but I am not learned enough yet to judge for sure.

    I don’t like what’s happening in Bangladesh or Pakistan, but the noise about it is out of all proportion to the activity. Ahmadiyya is not a poor, defenceless organisation. It has boycotted, bullied, beaten and brutalised its opponents. It is a money-grabbing personality cult that has threatened me and other dissidents with death - and more recently, the brutal rape of my daughters. Why? Because I practised my right to free speech in the UK. They had my videos removed from YouTube - so here is an organisation that screams for free speech, whilst practising the opposite. Nobody is allowed to make a public pronouncement from the Ahmadiyya unless it gets approval from the current Mirza family member leading the cult. How on earth is this freedom?

    Was I preaching hatred? No. I was educating Muslims about the difference between Qadianism and Islam and warning my brothers and sisters about the fitna. I actually don’t think it’s an enormous problem, but it is my problem. We all have different roles to play. Yours is far bigger than mine, for which you have my respect, but my role is important too, even if seemingly trivial.

    Perhaps you might not have had the opportunity read Allama Iqbal’s entreaty to the British Government, and if not, I recommend it. This remember, from the architect of Pakistan who was previously highly inclusive and at one point, found the ideas of Ahmadiyya in its early days to be credible. http://www.irshad.org/info_m/writings/iqbalpdc.php I will leave you insha’Allah, with a short extract:

    “Any religious society historically arising from the bosom of Islam, which claims a new prophethood for its basis, and declares all Muslims who do not recognise the truth of its alleged revelation as Kafirs, must, therefore, be regarded by every Muslims as a serious danger to the solidarity of Islam. This must necessarily be so; since the integrity of Muslim society is secured by the Idea of the Finality of Prophethood alone.”

    Wassalaam, with respect as always, Shahid

  • Vancouver Lawyer

    Thank you brother Yahya for your carefully considered and wisely advanced comments. I fully agree.

    Ismailis are Muslims in the fullest sense of the word. According to Wikipedia:

    Ismāʿīlism (Arabic: الإسماعيليون al-Ismāʿīliyyūn; Persian: اسماعیلیان Esmāʿiliyān; Urdu: إسماعیلی Ismāʿīlī) is a branch of the Islamic faith, and is the second largest part of the Shī‘ah community….Tracing its earliest theology to the lifetime of Muḥammad, Ismāʿīlism rose at one point to become the largest branch of Shī‘ism, climaxing as a political power with the Fatimid Empire in the tenth through twelfth centuries. In common with other Muslims, Ismailis believe in the oneness of God, as well as the closing of divine revelation with Muhammad, whom they see as the final prophet and messenger of God to all humanity.

  • Stuart

    I need to make some corrections mate - The European Parliament seat was won across Yorkshire & Humberside, not Sheffield alone. They sent us a letter of congratulations, and good on them. The BNP are here to stay, and just by banning us doesn’t meant we will go away - the Ahmadiyya community were the first Muslim group to actually stand up and acknowledge that. Hearts and minds can only be won by democratic discussion - not violence.

  • http://suspectpaki.com Shahid

    Stuart, if you’ve read the thread, or do some simple research, you would know that Ahmadiyya is outside Islam. Therefore, the Ahmadiyya is not a Muslim group. No Muslim group has congratulated the BNP.

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