Achelois and polygamy

The last couple of weeks, a debate has been going on on various blogs about polygamy, originally provoked by Achelois who made this post attacking polygamy based on various unpleasant incidents she knows of in one of the Gulf countries she has lived in. I responded with this; this was her response, which provoked a further response from Ginny. I have two separate defences for polygamy in Islam: one is that it is permitted without any shadow of a doubt, and the second is that you cannot condemn it based on the fact that some polygamist men are abusive.

As Muslims, we have to accept what Allah has revealed. That is what Islam means — submission of our wills to His. This includes when someone else is given rights over us in a way we don’t like or may be commonplace in our culture. Those who don’t like polygamy cannot simply argue “we don’t like it”, as non-Muslim opponents of aspects of Muslim culture commonly do; instead, they resort to dishonesty, interpreting certain passages of the Qur’an, and certain incidents which took place in the life of the Prophet (sall’ Allahu ‘alaih wa sallam) as if they meant things they do not actually mean — in this case, that polygamy is actually forbidden in Islam. The fact is that the Prophet and his Companions (radhi Allahu ‘anhum) didn’t consider it forbidden, and practised it.

An example Achelois uses is that of the marriage of Fatima (radhi Allahu ‘anhaa) to ‘Ali, who subsequently proposed to the daughter of Abu Jahl, who had been one of the harshest persecutors of the Muslims in Mecca and was killed in one of the early battles:

Now you can bring in ten different reasons why it was good and necessary and important and helpful and then I will bring ten counter-arguments and this will go on and on. That is why I didn’t want to link that post to Islam because idealism is different from experience and experience tells us that although the Prophet lived with over a dozen women as wives and slaves as a father he had very different sentiments for his daughter and his granddaughter. What was made halal by Allah, and that is your argument, was forbidden by the Prophet for his daughter and granddaughter. He knew how much it could hurt a woman and he didn’t want his daughter or granddaughter to be hurt like that, and the thing is they didn’t! They were not hurt through polygamy. You said polygamy doesn’t always mean abuse. No, it doesn’t but it always means hurt and even the Prophet knew it. Was Ali the kind of man who was incapable of treating all his wives equally? No! But even then the Prophet didn’t want his daughter to share Ali with another wife (he had concubines so it all boils down to sharing rights). I am not saying what the Prophet did was wrong, I am saying it was great and that is what we should all do. If Shariah is to be brought in why not base it on the Prophet’s experience rather than idealism?

When I pointed out who the proposed second wife was, Achelois flatly contradicted the hadeeth in Bukhari that states that the intended second wife was the daughter of Abu Jahl. There is at least one other hadeeth in Bukhari which states that this is who she was. The point is that, although the Prophet (sall’ Allahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) accepted that Ikrimah and other descendents of Abu Jahl were Muslims, this did not mean that he was willing for his daughter to have to put up with living with them in the same house given what Fatima had suffered at their father’s hands, and perhaps even theirs, as a child. A similar incident involves Wahshi, who as a non-Muslim killed the Prophet’s uncle, Hamza ibn Abd al-Muttalib; the Prophet (sall’ Allahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) told him that he never wanted to see him again even though his Islam was accepted. The lesson is that, although we are not allowed to hold grudges against people, especially Muslims for things they did before they were Muslims, this does not mean we have to love them as individuals or open ourselves up to them.

Achelois doesn’t give a source for her story. Still, I trust Bukhari because he was only a few degrees separated from the actual incident, rather than any modern academic who has read (and certainly has not memorised) a few books about the incident and is many, many more steps removed. The issue of whether women so close to the Prophet (sall’ Allahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) have a rank other women — even Sahabiyyat, many of whom were in polygamous marriages — don’t have does not occur to Achelois, it seems. Still, she does mention that some of them put conditions into their marriages that their husbands not take second wives, and this course of action (the condition must be linked to divorce or a right of the wife to divorce) is available to women who are determined not to be part of a polygamous marriage.

She also contended that the Shari’ah is “not monolithic” because various Muslim countries implement it differently. She named four countries — Bosnia, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Tunisia — as having “sharia law to some extent” but having banned polygamy. The fact is that the prohibitions on polygamy in all of them were imposed not by Muslims who had decided that it was a bad thing for women, but by secularists or communists who were attached to European ways and either hated Islam or religion of any kind. As the behaviour of the states in both Turkey and Tunisia demonstrates, secularists of the sort found in these countries do not actually give a stuff about the rights of Muslim women, whether as regards education or marriage or just being able to go about their business without harassment. They only care about women of their own kind. These countries may also have some legislation which includes legacies of Shari’ah, but very often they are influenced by cultural tradition and are not wholly Shari’ah (laws on child custody after divorce are a common example). The point is that you cannot judge what Shari’ah is by the laws found in Muslim countries, especially places like Tunisia where secularists have a stranglehold on power. This is highly relevant: by definition, laws fabricated by men who hate Islam cannot possibly be considered representative of Islamic law, or of the variety of how Shari’ah is implemented. There is a big difference between misguided attempts at Shari’ah codes, like the Hudood Ordinance in Pakistan, and the deliberate suppression of Shari’ah by those who hate it, along with numerous other aspects of Muslim religion and culture — the naming of children, dress, even the alphabet, to name three things which were forcibly changed in these countries.

A further trick of the anti-polygamy set is to put a whole load of baseless conditions on it, such as the requirement that the first wife agrees (curiously, they never mention that the second wife should agree when a third is taken, and so on). This is a totally baseless condition and assumes that the first wife will almost never agree. In a comment on Ginny’s blog, Achelois introduces the condition that the husband “be available for every delivery of every child”, meaning be in the house (because all women give birth at home, don’t they?) or at least the same town. However, this isn’t a requirement either: the husband may have good reason to be away, such as business or the illness of another family member (including another wife). If this should be a requirement for a polygamous marriage, surely it should be a requirement for a first marriage also?

The fact is that Islam does not demand that we do the best thing every time. Men don’t have to be around when their babies are born, be it in the same room or the same country. There comes a point where a man’s absence equals neglect and can become grounds for divorce or even a court claim, and becomes a sin, but being there is not a religious obligation. It does not always assume the absolute worst in human nature, as many of its modern critics seems to be doing based on a few horror stories coming out of some Muslim countries. It does not forbid things to everybody based on the fact that some people are not to be trusted with it, because that is how naughty children are to be treated, not adults. Why should all men be denied a right just because a few abuse it?

Achelois seems to have an intense distrust of Muslim men, and assumed that I would be different from other men she has encountered because I’m white and a western convert — by which she meant I might agree with her, and not defend polygamy basically because I would see that it was the root of a whole lot of the evil she sees in Arab society, such that she directed an Egyptian woman who hates wearing hijab, wears it only at her mother’s insistence and wants to find a husband who will let her remove it after marriage, towards my blog among other places. Personally, I became a Muslim to be a Muslim, not to be an Arab and whatever is wrong with Arab society has nothing to do with me, but I have personally known of white converts be somewhat cynical in their treatment of women, as I mentioned in my last post on this issue. Why she thought I would necessarily agree with her on polygamy is a mystery — she has obviously not read much of this blog, and may not be aware that there are numerous white converts in such marriages. I don’t condone the abuse of women, but I am not going to condemn polygamy out of hand because God and His Messenger permitted it and because polygamous marriages can, and often do, work.

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...

Possibly Related Posts:


FacebookTwitterIdenti.caDeliciousDiggStumbleUponWordPressShare
WomenPermalink
  • africana

    as stated previously, achelois has mentioned she is a unitarian universalist.it is unfortunate that she is not more clear about this.

  • africana

    assalamu alaikum,

    this is a really good article of yours, by the way, mashAllah. never knew that about wahshi becoming muslim.

  • africana

    it appears that achelois has addressed the issue of her being a member of the unitarian universalist church on her blog. as muslims we are to believe that Allah has perfected our religion. this being the case, we do not need to look outside of our religion. i have heard the line that such ans such is not a religioi spoken in regards to the transcendental meditation movement whose official line is that they’re not affiliated with any religion. however, anyone who knows anything about that will tell you that it most definitely is a religious organisation.

    achelois’ comment: “Your beliefs are accepted at a UU church because UUs accept all beliefs

    Frankly I have no idea about UU in US but in the UK it is very different. Our local UU church is a simple building with absolutely no iconography and the best part is they serve halal refreshments! For someone like me who doesn’t eat pork and doesn’t drink it was very encouraging to note that alcohol is never served there and food is always halal. Ramadan and Eid are celebrated at our church and at least all the congregations I have attended always draw inspiration from Muslim texts, especially from Sufism.

    Sufism attracts me a lot. There are some aspects of it that I don’t agree with but on the whole I love Sufism and find peace in it.

    I think in the US, UU is like a creedless faith (hence the book, UU A Chosen Faith)? But in the UK it is more like a body of people who like to discuss ideas about religion so the church draws Muslims, Christians, Jews and even Atheists. We all believe in our own ideas but learn from each other about each other.”

  • africana

    here’s a quote from a christian member of the glasgow unitarians who says he was “..able to connect with my christain heritage, without compromising those of my unorthodox views” what is clear is that members of this movement are there because they wish to give some religious legitimacy to their own desires. in the case of achelois, instead of feeling or struggling to accept Islam as scholars through the ages have understood Islam, she instead fashions a faith that is devoid of anything that she has difficulty in accpting.

  • http://www.getoutlines.wordpress.com Safiya Outlines

    Salaam Alaikum,

    My post was not written concerning polygamy, but in response to Ginny’s post despairing at the actions of some of our co-religionists, so please could you correct your link.

    This is a post I’ve written concerning polygamy:http://getoutlines.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/just-because-you-can-doesnt-mean-you-should/

    Africana - If you have such issues with Achelois’ religious practices, why don’t you discuss them with her directly. Such indirect speculation is very unseemly. .-= Safiya Outlines´s last blog ..‘Til the end of time, ’til the end of time… =-.

  • CNC

    Salam alaikoum, Polygamy is part of the sunnah. So is slavery for that matter. However people -men- are quick to want to go p, but no one wants to take on a slave or two to help out in the restaurant.  I’ve said on many occasions on my old blog that i am for p practiced correctly in keeping with the sunnah. Sadly it almost never is. One more sunnah I choose to follow (because we ultimately make choices in religion) is that of following the law of the land in which you live, be it kafir or not. In Switzerland, polygamy is highly illegal and punishable by expulsion/ revocation of visa and nationality. My visa application was a contract with the Swiss state that I would follow their laws in exchange for being allowed to live here at their discretion. Thus I will not practice p in Switzerland. Or commit welfare fraud, like the butcher friend in France. I’m not against that butcher being polygamous, I am against him calling his wives his mistresses (which is equivalent to admitting fornication as he has children with them) and collecting welfare for them. For polygamous men are supposed to be able to afford it- that is also sunnah.      For me, the p debate is like the hijab debate: people want to talk about if it is fard or not when we should be breaking it down to the level of personal choice: do you choose to wear hijab or not? Do you choose to go p or not? Islam can be black and white but the human experience is always in shades of grey because we are not perfect creatures and do not always make the best choice vis a vis our Islam.  

  • africana

    i am not interested in a game of ping pong with anyone, merely in informing people who might have read some of her posts that they are informed by her being a unitarian universalist. i wonder have felt the need to write what I did if she actually made that clear on the blog.

  • CNC

    Salams again- To clarify what was said about slavery-in that case I meant as in part of the practices at the time early in the religion. Provisions in Islam exist for slaves (slaves’ awrah and so on) Not sunnah as tradition per se. Rather, was making an analogy between two things part of the religion whether we like it or not one practiced and one not. 

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ Indigo Jo

    Salaams, Safiya, I removed the link as it wasn’t relevant to this discussion after all.

  • Organica

    I personally don’t see how polygamy fits in our modern world. There I said it. With so many single people out there, it would be better to sponsor other marriages than create this whole fiasco.

    Why go far? I live in Philly. Have you ever heard of Philly Muslims? It’s the norm here for African American brothers to have multiple wives with multiple children—all supported by welfare. Usually the husband has no job and is off finding a replacement fourth or fifth wife. They are no different than the baby Mama/ baby daddy drama.

    This disgusts me.

    Matthew, have you ever met a product of polygamous marriages? Have you? You are too detached from reality, and I believe that is the problem with this Ummah. Trying to find an excuse to why the Prophet didn’t want his daughter in polygamy instead of accepting it for what it is. Why couldn’t Fatima simply not want to share her husband? Have you thought why he didn’t select another wife instead of the daughter of Abu Jahl?

    Note to everyone: Bukhrai doesn’t equal the words of GOD. I am sure there is some error. It’s not a primary source for me!

    Reality is, polygamy is an option that was feasible then.

    I always question where children stand in these marriages? How can a father raise and provide for all of these children who hope to make it to college one day? And if you think a father shouldn’t be present for the birth of his own child, then he shouldn’t be present in his/her life because that is the woman’s job. And if that is the woman’s job, then HELLO corrupt wild boys/girls.

    Give me reality that works.

    I’ve traveled, I’ve encountered polygamy and IT NEVER WORKS. Never. And it works in the Gulf countries because each wife is given a mansion to shut her up!

    **

    P.S: If anyone wants to question Achelois’ beliefs, etc. you may go through me first. This is getting out of hand. A genuine person is behind these posts with a lot of belief and love for God. I am sick of people attacking her with dumbness. So you go after her, you are going after me.

    I am seriously fed up with all this crap. FEAR GOD, people and move on!

  • Pingback: Excuse Me While I Rant « Ginny's Thoughts & Things

  • http://www.getoutlines.wordpress.com Safiya Outlines

    Salaam Alaikum,

    So from someone’s faith being questioned behind their backs, we now have a brother mocking a sister’s hijab. Disgusting.

    Matthew, I write this to you as your sister in Islam and a friend. I really think you’ve dropped the ball with this one. Please read and engage with what sisters are saying. None of us are disputing what the Qur’an says.

    What we are disputing is the place of polygamy in modern society and we are making that stance from a place of real pain. As sad as it sounds, it can be very painful being a Muslim women, when Muslim men continue to deny your humanity and right to happiness. How can we be happy when our own brothers in faith seek to minimalise and dismiss us?

    Where are the brothers who will listen to a woman who pleads (as the Prophet, peace be upon him did) and take her seriously?

    When I first read this post, I admit I felt very hurt and disappointed. I consider you a friend and an ally, so to read you sticking your fingers in your ears to our pain talking only of men’s rights, hurt.

    Please reconsider your stance on this issue. All you have done is upset and insult women who considered you a friend and attracted the lowest common denominator of commenters to your blog.

    If you want to be an ally, if you want to help, you have to listen to those you’re aiming to support. Listen to us.

    Your friend,

    Safiya. .-= Safiya Outlines´s last blog ..‘Til the end of time, ’til the end of time… =-.

  • africana

    i really can’t see what the fuss is about,tbh. i really don’t see how statng that polygamy is relevant to our modern society amounts to a disregard for women. how can it be if there are women who also hold such views? that polygamy is allowed and remains relevant doesn’t mean you’re going to run head long into it. i believe that polygamy could work well where the women involved are supportive of such a set-up.

  • http://www.muslimmatters.org amad

    salam Br. Yusuf, Good post and much needed. There is no doubt polygamy has been widely abused, but so have a lot of other halal things. I also agree that it is becoming harder and harder to practice it… men are becoming lesser of men, and women lesser of women. It is surely becoming harder for men to handle it as simultaneously women are ensuring that it only becomes harder. I do see the trend of polygamy continuing to shift downwards (inverse to the trend of extramarital relations).

    Since it has been made such a taboo (almost to the point that a husband taking another wife is worse than his getting cancer), I see many good brothers who have instead gone down the road of Western-style polygamy… no contract needed, no responsibility required… no marriage… you get the picture. They could afford it, they could be fair to their wives (and as you point having a requirement of emotional equality is as ridiculous of a condition as breathing the same amount in each house! Never was a condition, never will), but they fear the social and home disaster so much that they would rather sneak bits of haraam than to do the halal.

    I don’t buy the “polygamy’s place in the modern world” argument… it’s just a red herring. This is more about reinventing Islam to suit one’s own fancies and perspectives. It’s about “I don’t like it, so I don’t want others to like it”. Polygamy is just one of the many things on the plate of our own feminists. Not satisfied with what Islam has to offer, and instead of simply saying that I can’t handle it, the goal has shifted to “I could have handled it if it was right, so it must not be right”. In both situations, the sister chooses not to partake in a halal (polygamy is not fard). However, while the former is perfectly acceptable (it is not required for a woman to accept it), in the latter case, she chooses to defile the essence of faith. And that essence is Allah knows best, even if we don’t.

    You obviously know that an internet clique has taken up arms against your post… but thankfully, it’s only a small clique. The progressive movement, in its organizational sense, has pretty much died a painful and bitter death. But their ideas will continue to prop up, from different sources. To be clear, I do not say that whoever poses progressive-sounding idea(s)— one or more—- or is part of this clique or any other clique is a progressive or one to be shunned, just like catching a virus doesn’t mean you have flu. But I do fear for my brothers and sisters who don’t take the virus seriously enough before it does fully engage.

    May Allah forgive us for our shortcomings, make us love what we may not fully understand from His perfect deen, hold us firm and steady to the Sunnah, and indeed, keep us “one of us, the Muslim ummah”, an ummah that with all its faults and its shortcomings is still the best ummah. Whoever chooses to leave this ummah (and the jama’h) is choosing to leave those who will be joining the Prophet (S) on the Day of Judgment. “Bite to my Sunnah & the Sunnah of the Khulafa Rashideen”… yeah, yeah, another hadith. We can’t have enough of our beloved Prophet’s words. .-= amad´s last blog ..You Are Perfectly Created =-.

  • http://www.developingdivorcee.blogspot.com pserean

    hmmm… this is just a little ramble: ive always wondered- if men are supposed to treat all wives equally, wouldnt it make sense that the second wife should also go through the same level of hardship as the first wife? eg. if the first wife lived in poverty for 20 yrs before finally rising in material goods after supporting her husband etc etc… shouldnt the same test be applied to number2?

    men dont get that us women…we love equality. we really do. and misery…if we can share it- all the better!

    so bring on the poverty, living with a motherinlaw until youre 60, family politics and cooking for a village every day…. and then maybe after 20 yrs of number 2 doing all these things, Then maybe…number one will say- sister…you can get up on this pedestal and join me.

    what we Dont like..and never will- is how many women’s hard work and patience and toil is just passed by…and another woman reaps the harvest of the first wife. and because ultimately, spin the line however you want…that other wife is the physical manifestation of everything you’re not. a really loud shout- that you were not Enough.

    (this isnt an argument against polygamy…its just some insight as to why most women are uncomfortable with it.)

  • http://www.getoutlines.wordpress.com Safiya Outlines

    Salaam Alaikum,

    I think I’ll start making a bingo card.

    If a Muslimah makes a statement deemed to be against male interests, the following responses are:

    “You’re just a Progessive, i.e Not as Muslim as Me”

    “You’re just following your own desires, i.e. Not as Muslim as Me”

    “Allah says (or at least in my opinion He does, because I like what I think He’s saying here)…”

    “Woman only don’t like polygamy because they can’t handle it, so toughen up you whiny bitchez”.

    “Finish up with some hadith tossing. If you can quote hadith, you’re obviously a Good Muslim and are on the right path.”

    Amad - You’re comparing us to a virus that will infect your lovely pure Hislam? How dare you presume to hold the higher ground here and belittle what we have to say?

    Many, many, many Muslim women accross the world feel like we do, we are no small clique. How dare you presume to be a better or more knowledgable Muslim then any of us. .-= Safiya Outlines´s last blog ..‘Til the end of time, ’til the end of time… =-.

  • http://ginnysthoughts.wordpress.com Ginny

    Assalamu alaikum, I’m not even sure where to start with these comments. Firstly, I’m not some kinda “progressive Muslim”, (whatever that means), just because I’m real with myself and others when I say that I don’t feel comfortable with polygamy for myself, now whatever anyone else wants to do, that is on them. I don’t think polygamy should be banned, it’s just the problem is many men misuse it, although I’m rehashing as I say this. I’m not arguing that a polygamous situation could not work, but it takes mature and thoughtful (at the very minimum) people all around to make it work.

    And I don’t think most men (and I guess women too, though for me that’s not my point) could handle it, because I think if men were fair and just for the most part, then we’d not be having this discussion. And I don’t think that my hesitance to accept polygamy in my own life should be some kind of barometer to gauge my Muslimness or lack thereof. And worse, label me part of some kind of “progressive Muslim clique”. I’m really saddened by this whole affair and some of the horrible comments that have resulted, and Alhamdulillah that I never married any of these men, that has definitely been my gain for sure.

    To say that the only reason women won’t except polygamy is either because “they’re not real (Muslim) women”, or because we don’t wish to follow the Sunnah, or because we’re just too progressive, I find to be quite galling! I will not have my Islam questioned by people who don’t even know me, and the only way they know me is online, which doesn’t mean much really. Perhaps it’s time I re-evaluate who I associate with online, because clearly it seems that I’ve really misjudged some people and it seems they’ve terribly misjudged me. .-= Ginny´s last blog ..Excuse Me While I Rant =-.

  • s.ali

    Hi all - I know of 4 polygamous marriages. I know both wives in all 4 cases. 2 of the marriages are working very well in fact and the wives are happy and the children are happy. the other 2 situations are not working so well.

    Just like you can’t judge Islam by the behaviour of some Muslims, Christianity by the behaviour of some Christians Polygamy shouldn’t be judged by the behaviors of some men.

    Also Many men aren’t around for the births of their children - what’s that got to do with polygamy?

  • Leila

    As organica have pointed out you are detached from reality, especially marriage life. In your previous post about polygamy you have stated a woman could find a benefit in polygamy by having time to herself. Any woman who encourages her husband to get a 2nd wife so that he is out of the house more is dealing with underlying issues/problems. Reality is that there is less income for her and the children as he has more mouths to feed, less time being spent with the family, less duties shared. If i did not like my husband and divorce was not an option, i would gladly find 2 or 3 wives to get him out of my sight.

  • http://www.muslimmatters.org Amad

    folks, before you jump at me with your swords unsheathed, read my comment carefully, and if you thought u did, do it again. If u do, u’ll come away with these points: 1)nothing wrong with sisters who cannot or don’t want to accept this mubah act for themselves. 2)my problem is with feminists wanting to change the reality of the permissibility. If you are not in this camp, like sr ginny apparently, then I am not talking about u. 3)having a progressive outlook on an issue or more doesn’t make u an outright progressive. I admit that there is no gauge to determine when it occurs, but usually the party declares it itself. 4)chill out on the “u called me a virus” emotional routine. I sure did NOT. The particular desire or action to modify what is clear in islam to suit the realities of the “modern world” is dangerous and if not stopped, can spread like a virus, ultimately leading to some renouncing the deen. Do I need to give examples? So, no, my dear sister Safiyyah, I never called you a virus, neither would I the self-admitted progressives. Just using a metaphor.

    Hope that is clarifies, sorry for not being clearer in my first comment.

  • null

    I think the point is you don’t acknowledge the pains and sufferings of most children and women in polygmaous marriages. So the next (logical) step would be to make it hard for men to marry more than one by making it socially unacceptable and even legally unacceptable (without some conditions which are not present in tradtional Fiqh)

  • http://muslimmatters.org/ amad

    Br. Yusuf, can you pls add line-breaks between my 4 points for easier read… my smart-phone text editor wasn’t quite that smart i guess :)

    null, read my comment again, I acknowledge the abuse in the very first lines. But I will never acknowledge that the answer is to go against the Prophetic law, which is essentially what you are suggesting, and proving my point. The majority of Muslims like traditionalism, it is the only real connection to the Messenger. All else is reinvention, which can never quite touch the pure, the original. .-= amad´s last blog ..You Are Perfectly Created =-.

  • http://mezba.blogspot.com Mezba

    First, where is the author of the post?

    Second, to brother Amad, a Muslim state can (and has in the past) forbidden things normally permitted in Islam. Umar (peace be upon him) had restrictions on height of buildings, areas where Arabs can stay (and mix with Non-Arabs), etc. He also removed the Hadd punishment of cutting the hand of thieves during a drought. He said three divorces are final. Later Caliphs amended all or some of these rulings. We accept Umar’s rulings as part of Shariah, as well as later Caliphs’. So permissibility is something that can be changed with the times. In today’s times in a modern society, it is time to realize perhaps polygamy has had its day. It remains generally permissible in Islam, but perhaps not in today’s society. .-= Mezba´s last blog ..Letter to South Park Creators =-.

  • Safiya Outlines

    Salaam Alaikum,

    Amad - None of us are saying polygamy is Haraam. What we are saying is that is very poorly practised and a frequent cause of major fitna and family breakdown.

    So brothers need to fear Allah and stop bleating about their rights and how good Muslimahs should accept it or divorce (like it’s easy becoming a single mother through no fault of your own). If something causes great harm in our ummah we need to discuss it. I’ve said this before, but family breakdown is the biggest problem facing this ummah and men’s poor treatment of women is a huge factor in this.

    You’re back tracking now, but trust me, I read EXACTLY what you wrote. You judged us and besmirched us when you had no right to do so.

    I don’t need your approval, nor do I want it. Keep going with your Hislam if you wish, and the ‘clique’ will get on with informing women of their rights to live in dignity and happiness.

  • Umm Zein

    Ginny, you hit the nail on the head:

    “I think if men were fair and just for the most part, then we’d not be having this discussion.”

  • s.ali

    not many people have kushoo in salah or give salah it’s due - should we ban it?

    Mezba - we don’t have a Muslim state do we? Also Archelois or any of us for that matter are hardly equal to Umar RA

  • africana

    i was reading through some of the comments left on achelois’ blog regarding this aqnd that “apology to y. smith post” and i was dismayed at how some of those people on there descended into personal insults and ridicule. it would appear that as a result of this discussion, one comenator even went as far as de-friending yusuf based on his opinions, as though holding polygamy to be relevant and permitted is an entirely new fangled opinion.

    it’s clear to me that satan used this issue to create emnity between the participants by willing them top equate aanyone being suppportive of polygamy as an ogre, entirely devoid of empathy. i think it’s important that we seek refuge from satan and remember that the online world is as much prey to his tricks than anywhere else.

  • Greengrass3

    Salaam Yusuf/Mathew

    Having read your above post and appreciating you have a not insignificant platform with your blog I feel compelled to say I find your comments naive and lacking in reflection. Those who have commented on your post with a range of misgivings have not done so in a fit of irrational pique but to demonstrate the challenges of ideology in the space or gaping chasm between theory and practice. Your tone in my view is unhelpfully purist, though no doubt denoting the passionate commitment you feel for your faith. Yet, I can hear no empathy in your voice and it makes me doubt the wisdom of your views, as you say at one point, ‘I cannot condemn it on the fact that some polygamist men are abusive…’ To be truthful I find your tone slightly immature, emotionally I mean. I’m sure you’re not an unintelligent person but without emotional maturity the breadth of the intellect is impeded.

    Whilst I recognise Muslim and non Muslim feminists do a lot for women’s rights all over the world, I can’t apply the label to myself without reacting as if stung by a jellyfish! But, I am humbled by them at times. I was at an international Islamic conference for women last year and found myself seated in the company of a Syrian feminist who worked in a women’s centre in her native country. I found her grumpy most of the time, irritated with me for my poor Arabic, not that I blame her for that, as it irritates me too. She found my being an asian Muslim palatable and at one moment when we were busy disagreeing as she was in full flight with a negative diatribe against men, she stopped mid sentence to say, ‘I just wish if men are going to take another wife, they had the decency to tell the wife they already have first…’ We were both lost for words at this point and just stared at each other. It was the first time I had warmed to her and had finally understood her abrasive style was founded on hearfelt frustration at seeing the abuse of polygamy regularly and picking up the emotional pieces with the Syrian women who were suffering this experience. It is not every person’s experience, I know, but it was hers. Whilst I have empathy for my fellow human beings of either gender I am also fully aware of the frailty of human nature. Hence my unease with your impervious championing of this aspect of our faith. ‘Idealism is different from experience…’ Isn’t that what many are disagreeing here, the ideal scenario is polygamy doesn’t cause unhappiness, which in experience it clearly does. ‘…it boils down to sharing rights…’ I’m hoping I’ve misunderstood the point you’re making here, however, it does sound as if you’re saying the step away from idealism is women codifying ‘sharing rights.’ Are these women to be concubines or wives, I am unclear, either way it reads like a kitchen sink drama to me - far and away from any idealism a woman may have had before she was married. I don’t know any polygamous marriages that work, just women feeling discarded, past their sell by date. I was born a Muslim, in over three decades I have grown up and watched married Muslim women I know struggle to communicate with their husbands and those are women in a monogamous relationship. It’s not all doom and gloom but I can’t pretend over the years this is not what I have witnessed. I am not personally impacted upon by this issue, I’m not in a polygamous or monogamous marriage. But, I do like to learn from the married Muslims I meet. ‘The lesson is…this does not mean we have to love them as individuals or open ourselves up to them…’ Mathew, do you think we could extend this teaching a little further and suggest Muslim (women, in this context) defend themselves or are defended by others when it comes to being abused by other Muslims (men, in this context) and coerced into polygamy, which is surely where the enmity on this issue emanates from. You talk about ‘secularists’and say ‘they only care aboout women of their own kind…’ and refer to ‘misguided attempts at shari’ah codes…’ by whose definition misguided? Yours? And, if Muslim women are protected from abuse and it is by a ‘secularist,’ ‘orthodox,’ or ‘progressive’ and so on and so forth, then I for one am gladdened to hear it. Personally I think you sound disappointingly isolationist, unwittingly so in your puritan zeal to ignore the emotional experience for women in the gap between theoretical ideals and harsh realities. ‘A further trick of the anti polygamy set…’ This is not a game Mathew, it’s about real lives, women who feel as truly and as deeply as you do about their faith but perhaps don’t want to be victims despite a theoretical acceptance of their faith. ‘…that is how naughty children are to be treated, not adults.Why should we all be denied a right because a few abuse it…’ Would you be deeply offended if I said you remind me of a naughty child? I hope not but I suspect you are feeling seriously patronised at this point… In my experience of work many men are like boys, at this point even I have to acknowledge I sound like a feminist! But, I can live with that. If they were able to treat their wife with real respect, I mean really respect her, then I don’t believe they would seriously contemplate another wife. They would be happy with what they have, just as she should be. Gratitude for what we have I think is spiritually quite a challenge, for me anyway. As a trained counsellor but a teacher over a number of years I have taught both genders, more so males, my biggest motivation is to emotionally empower them enough so in the future they have happy lives with a wife they are emotionally competent enough to treat respectfully. I know my contribution is a drop in the ocean but I share with you the intention behind my vocation. I do have powerful positive personal experience of Muslim males in my father and brothers. But many males, Muslim or otherwise I have found can be oppressive to women because they lack self esteem and are emotionally inarticulate. This is not a definition of many men everywhere, ofcourse it is not. Yet, too many I have interacted with do fit this bill. I also must emphasize this is highly unlikely to be the experience of all other women. It does not make me mistrust men. Infact a recent project i undertook was to empower Muslim males through education and a variety of other approaches to enure they reach their potential… For me this was a spiritual undertaking because I was overwhelmed by the expectaions put on males to know how to ‘just be’, without the range of resources, male role models, or permission from society at large to express any fears and uncertainties about life that they may have, particularly on an emotional level. There are not enough support mechansism out there or they seem pretty remote to many Muslim male teenagers in my experience anyway. If they have not learned to be at peace with themselves how are they going to manage being at peace with one partner, never mind two, or three, or four… It’s my long winded way of saying I want them to be at peace with themselves in order that they promote their faith to the very best of their individual abilties. ‘…polygamous marriages can and often do work..’ I’m not saying that they can’t work at all. I am not presuming to say that. But, I think it is presumption on your part to say they ‘often’ do work. How often? By what measure do you quantify ‘often’? 8 out of 10 surveyed? Really I think you use that contextually important word rather carelessly here.

    I am not suggesting that I am an expert on polygamy nor am I labelling myself any of the range of labels to define the broad spectrum of Muslims out there in the world today. Moreover, I am comfortable with the spectrum being broad, it stimulates me, it enriches my learning as it provokes my thought and my process of reflection all the time. So, in short, the above ramblings are just thoughts but I hope not disrespectful in how they are communicated. I resepct your passion and the earnest desire with which you express yourself about your faith. I really do and not in a tokenistic way, but with sincerity. I would also add please accept my sincere apolgies if I have said anything in an unkind way or shown a lack of generosity of spirit. I am sure we are all well intentioned here and that includes myself.

    Jzk

  • Pingback: I Really Didn’t Want to Address This, But… « Ginny's Thoughts & Things

  • Pam

    S.Ali said: “not many people have kushoo in salah or give salah it’s due - should we ban it?”

    how can you even compare this to prayer? If your not giving prayer it’s due, your hurting yourself only. If you don’t practice polygyny in a proper Islamic manner, you’re are not only hurting yourself, but the wives, the children, your entire family as well.

  • africana

    assalamu alaikum,

    i have just read ginny’s post. since i don’t know the background story, i ought not to have mentioned the defriending. nevertheless, i do stand by what i said about the tone of many of the comments on achellois’ blog.

  • africana

    this is, i think, my last comment on achelois.

    achelois is quite a word smith and has a knack for pushing her readers into emotional responses in order to gain the reader’s acceptance. given the persusasive tone in which she writes i believe she could easily deceive less knowledgeable or impressionable muslims into accepting some of personal opinions as being valid opinions that scholars for the past thousand or so years had just happened to overlook.

    What is more, she has allowed a number of insulting comments to go unchallenged comments which are insulting to both Muslims and Islam.

    I strongly advise Muslims and others to take what she says with extreme caution and to reflect on the following warning:

    “Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:”This is from God,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.”

  • http://ginnysthoughts.wordpress.com Ginny

    Assalamu alaikum, @Africana, why not address this to Achelois directly? Is it not backbiting to speak about someone behind their back, when not in their presence? Why discuss this on Yusuf’s blog, when it’s actually Achelois (and me as well) that you seem to have a problem with? Why should anyone take people seriously about “unsound opinions” and how certain Muslims are “misleading” impressionable Muslims, when these same people can so cavalierly backbite and talk badly about other Muslims and not go to said Muslims’ own blogs and address them directly? It says a lot when you can talk a lot of stuff in a “safe” space, yet not go to the source of the “misguidance” if you will, and try to speak with them directly? And I would normally have given you the benefit of the doubt on this but you’ve not only backbitten and possibly slandered Achelois but myself as well. And you’ve spoken about things that you have no knowledge of, and instead of taking things to the sources, since you’ve admitted to reading our posts, you come back here where you know it’s safe, and leave your comments here. If Achelois is wrong, or I am wrong, then we need to be addressed and “corrected” directly, and not in someone else’s blog who happens to be sympathetic to your point of view.

    And let me be clear, because I seem to be misunderstood. I don’t necessarily always agree with Achelois, I don’t think polygamy should be banned. I think that polygamy is a Sunnah, it is par tof Islam. However, I do not choose this lifestyle for myself, because I am not sure that I can handle it. And Islamicly, and from the Sunnah, I have that right, and choosing to exercise this right doesn’t make me any less of a Muslim than you, if you choose to live in a household with your 3 other cowives and husband.

    the problem is that womens rights, in general, that are supposed to be given to us Islmaicly, and polygamy in paritcular, are abused and misused. And this was my entire point. Now, whatever the point that Achelois was trying to make needs to be addressed and taken up with her.

    What I have issue with is people who have known me for years allowing others to implicitly or otherwise question my Islam, just because I choose not to partake in something that isn’t absolutely required. And I also don’t like this particular blogger’s dismissive and arrogant attitude toward the real issues that many women face in polygamous marriages.

    If I’ve not made myself clear enough by now, then I really don’t know what else to say. I am making dua that I will not respond any further on this issue, because it is my true intention that I not respond any further. Allah alone knows my intentions and knows where I stand, and I will leave it to Him to judge me, not some annonymous person who can’t be bothered to come and speak to me and others directly who they have a problem with. .-= Ginny´s last blog ..Thoughts On a Weekend. =-.

  • http://muslimmatters.org/ amad

    salam Ginny, let me add that I have read enough from you and Organica (although her comment about Bukhari’s authority is troubling since the authority of Quran and authentic hadith is equal under all the mainstream madahib) to not consider you as part of any clique. And if you read my original comment, it is obvious that you don’t fit into the category of those who are trying to reinvent Islam. And I know neither of you need any approval from me, I am just clarifying my own personal stance, take it as you wish.

    I agree that it is perfectly okay to mention the abuse of polygamy, which is a problematic issue in our society, as I saw in the Philly neighborhoods (even though I am sure there are good examples too that don’t come out often enough), and it is also perfectly ok for someone to not accept it for herself.

    I do think that you misunderstood not only me, but also Br. Yusuf. I don’t think he would disagree with your sentiments as stated above either. His problem is related to some people making polygamy sound so bad (when is the last time there was a success story reported— you cannot say that there isn’t one as I myself have witnessed more than one) and conditions so hard, it almost begs the question, “why did Allah make it even halal”. That’s kind of dangerous territory, and you know that some people have left the deen when they have started flirting with questioning issues they cannot comprehend.

    I REALLY believe that you share much more in common with Br. Yusuf in the fundamentals of the deen than those who are making a mockery of the religion and of orthodoxy. I hope that when things cool down, you will take some time to rethink this entire issue in an objective sense, and then decide with who you share more with on fundamentals.

    wasalam .-= amad´s last blog ..UK General Election 2010: The Big Voting Debate [AE]- Comments Open =-.

  • Pingback: Indigo Jo Blogs — Miss USA, Muslim role models and the state of our blogging community