Faith schools are no menace

Last week, Richard Dawkins delivered a polemic on the British digital TV channel, More 4, against the principle of government support for faith schools. (It is available for viewing at 4 On Demand, although possibly only in the UK.) Faith School Menace set out a number of the most common arguments about why faith schools are bad: that middle-class parents fake religious observance to get their children into better schools, that they are able to openly discriminate, that they cause or foster divisions, and that the religious organisations behind them have influence far beyond their contribution to the school’s upkeep. Dawkins added two arguments more in line with his secularist/atheist tendencies: that they teach things that are proven to be false, particularly as regards evolution, and that they rely on indoctrinating children when they are most vulnerable to it.

Some of the points he makes in the first group are quite valid. He held up a map of Oxford in which there were three faith schools clustered in a small area, but the non-faith schools were miles away, and that if you live in the area where the faith schools were, you had less chance of getting into a local school. This seems valid on the surface of it, but in fact not all religious schools do discriminate against people from outside their church. The Church of England has a number of schools in which a majority of the pupils are not even Christian, let alone Anglican (this is particularly true in east London). The objection to this kind of discrimination has some validity; in the past, some of the white religious groups such as Catholics and Jews might have had a good reason to have separate schools because hostility towards them was rife. This is not the case anymore, particularly for Catholics, but it may well be true for Muslims in some places.

I should add here that religious or secular status is not in itself an indicator of whether a school is good or bad. I went to three Catholic schools as a child and two secular ones. As a rough guide, two of the three Catholic schools were reasonably good as was one of the secular ones. The other two were dreadful; the Catholic junior school seemed to be under the control of the reactionary faction of the Catholic school and had bizarre rules, allowing the boys and girls barely any contact with each other outside the classrooms with no explanation as to why. Several of the teachers were miserable individuals and they all taught in the lower section of the school, and the school had a system of prefects (usually girls) who could sometimes be heard screaming at a classful of children, while the teacher was out of the room, “stop talking!”. The bad secular school was a terribly cruel and brutal place.

Still, despite all this, the school had a fairly good ethnic mix as many of the Catholics in Croydon are from places like Goa and various parts of Africa. There was very little racial tension. The same was true of the Catholic secondary school I attended for my first year. However, some religions, and some branches of other religions, are ethnically based and any school which discriminates in their favour is discriminating against others. If a Jewish school sets its admission criteria based on strict adherence to a particular form of Judaism, that is not racial discrimination, but if they require them to just be Jewish but not necessarily practising to their standards, that is certainly racial discrimination. This may happen with some Muslim schools also: a school which demands adherence not only to Islam but to, say, a “Tablighi ethos”, is likely to end up with a predominantly Indo-Pak pupil base (there are some white and black converts who conform to this, but rarely any other ethnic Muslims).

In the case of the “fake observance”, it should be pointed out that fake observance at the outset can give way to true observance later, but even so, if churches are acting as a kind of hereditary or ethnic friendly society, a private club you have to join to get your kids into their school, that’s not a good way to run an education system, all the more so if they set entry barriers which keep out the less well-off, such as expensive bespoke uniforms. I should add that Catholic schools in many places in the world cater to pupils of their religion and others, and see it as a way of spreading the gospel through service to the community. If the Catholic church wants to do that here, I don’t have a problem with that; if they are merely providing services to their old ethnic bases in the absence of belief or practice, that surely isn’t a good thing. The state funds all schools, and should make sure that all schools are up to the standard that parents should not have to choose between faking religion, even if it’s the religion of their grandparents, or a bad education for their children. This is to say nothing of those of different religions who are shut out of multiple local schools, for whom faking another religion is likely not to be an option at all.

I don’t buy the “dividing the communities” argument. Northern Ireland’s problems, as I have said here many times in the past, did not begin when Catholics and Protestants started going to different schools. There may be a case for making sure schools there (and in other places of long-standing Protestant/Catholic division, such as Liverpool and Glasgow) integrate, although in some cases it could lead to gang problems within the schools given the way some of the paramilitaries in Northern Ireland had developed. I was never conscious of any division between Catholics and others at schools in Croydon, where I grew up, and we certainly weren’t taught to be suspicious of them or consider them as infidels or anything of that sort.

The secularist arguments were not well laid-out. Dawkins was asked one of the most common and weakest arguments against evolution, namely why there are still apes if humans are descended from apes. His response was that humans are in fact apes and, rather than being descended from chimpanzees, we simply have a common ancestor. Dawkins: one, Muslim schoolgirl: nil. There are much stronger arguments than this, such as why there are plants growing in England that wasps confuse for female wasps so they can pollinate them; if the plant existed without the wasp, the plant is unlikely to have lasted very long. A schoolgirl was shown arguing that there is a barrier between bodies of fresh and salt water, so that the fresh water stays pure for us to drink, something that left Dawkins flabbergasted, but it could well have been the interpretation that the girl quoted a bit of that was unscientific, not the fact of such separation. After all, we get our drinking water from fresh sources such as wells and streams and they are never, or in some cases almost never, polluted by salt water. The land itself separates the two types of water.

Finally, there is the issue of what right parents have to indoctrinate their children in their own religion as if they own them. Well, parents have always been responsible for bringing up their children the best they can, and to those with a religion, that includes letting them in on the religion they believe in. It’s not some kind of power play; the parents regard it as doing their best for them. No doubt Dawkins will teach his children what he believes as well. This teaching can hardly be said to be unbreakable given how many children were sent to religious schools in the UK and stopped practising as soon as they left. I stopped going to Mass when I was eight, well before I left my second Catholic school.

I should add that not all Muslim parents want Muslim-only schools for their children. I have spoken to one parent in London who pulled his son out of one because its standards just weren’t up to his. Similarly, when I interviewed sister Ardo from Ottawa about her niqaab story in 2006, I discovered that her family had passed over an Islamic school for her younger sisters partly for financial reasons but also because they simply found the state school to be preferable for various social and educational reasons. She had herself worn niqaab in that same state school in her final year (age 17 onwards). I have read various stories on blogs about private Muslim schools where there is a lack of professionalism, where teachers are not paid enough and contracts not honoured and so on (particularly in the USA).

As for my own personal preference, if I lived in a decent part of town I would prefer a school that did not interfere with pupils’ expression of their own religion (such as hijaab and so on) and did not cling to relics of the past (uniforms, prefects, pointless rules) as so many British state schools do, than one like them with the Christian bits replaced with Islamic equivalents. But it is also quite justified for parents to want to keep their children away from those who are openly hostile to them and their religion, and to prefer a religious school to a state school in an inner-city area where there are problems with gangs and where the general standard of behaviour is much less than what they want their children to see. I am sure Dawkins is a fairly wealthy man and lives in a place where that choice does not have to be made; many Muslim parents in the UK are not so lucky.

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  • Irony of Life

    I find little Dick Dawkins to be a curious case. A vengeful has-been who revels in his new found b-list atheist celebrity status. I find most of his logic to be extremely flawed and based on hatred and misconceptions. His recent bin bag comments are a clear testimony of his illogical hate. What is disturbing is when Christians jump on little Dick Dawkin’s hatred band wagon against Muslims only to find little Dick turning on them the next day. As for the whole molecular evolution vs. general evolution, I have never been convinced that molecular evolution can be extrapolated to general evolution. Further, the evidence for God far outweighs the evidence for general evolution. With regard to the school debate I find myself in agreement with you Yusuf.

  • M Risbrook

    The same was true of the Catholic secondary school I attended for my first year.

    Out of curiosity, do you think you would have ended up at Kesgrave Hall School if you had attended an ordinary comprehensive secondary school?

    This may happen with some Muslim schools also: a school which demands adherence not only to Islam but to, say, a “Tablighi ethos”, is likely to end up with a predominantly Indo-Pak pupil base

    Part of the problem is that Muslim schools in the UK are likely to end up being run by one ethnic group for that ethnic group and will prefer not to take in children from different backgrounds. This is less a case of governance of the schools but simply the wishes and desires of the parents. If a Muslim school decided not to teach Urdu or Pakistani cultural issues on the grounds that Muslims from other backgrounds might not be interested, then many Pakistani parents would not want to use that school for their children.

    But it is also quite justified for parents to want to keep their children away from those who are openly hostile to them and their religion, and to prefer a religious school to a state school in an inner-city area where there are problems with gangs and where the general standard of behaviour is much less than what they want their children to see.

    There’s also the option of home / community education.

    http://www.islamichomeeducation.co.uk

  • Belal

    @Irony I find it interesting that you say that you have “never been convinced that molecular evolution can be extrapolated to general evolution”. I assume by general evolution you mean physical changes in the animals? Given that physical traits are coded at the molecular level doesn’t it follow that changes at the root of those traits will produce changes in those traits? If not then what effect would molecular evolution have at all? Also I don’t know if you are Muslim or not but it may not be the best adab in an argument to use deliberately patronising diminutives like “little Dick Dawkins,” such things are extraneous to the topic and just distract from the real issue. I know nobody likes to take criticism from strangers but I just wanted to point that out as I see a lot of people doing it. Maybe it’s just part of human nature but so are many other things we should probably avoid.

  • africana

    this programme deals with plans by oldham council to amalgamate two very etnically and religiously segregated secondary schools.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8881030.stm

  • africana

    “If a Muslim school decided not to teach Urdu or Pakistani cultural issues on the grounds that Muslims from other backgrounds might not be interested, then many Pakistani parents would not want to use that school for their children.”

    i am in favour of faith schools but this is a very good point.

  • Irony of Life

    Belal, Are you a morality/ethical policeboy or from some weird sect? all i can say to you is vice versa.

  • M Risbrook

    i am in favour of faith schools but this is a very good point.

    I have been saying for years that unless ‘inclusiveness’ legislation is installed, then many Muslim schools will end up becoming Pakistani / Bangladeshi culture clubs with a tendency to discriminate against Muslims from other backgrounds - including white Britons. Unfortunately, a high proportion of ethnic Muslims in Britain appear to put their culture, background, and community language above their religion. If a Muslim school enforces a strict policy that English and Arabic are the only languages that children can speak and serves European style meals rather than curry, then the chances are that Asian Muslim parents will prefer to send their children to the local state school that caters for their cultural issues.

  • africana

    i abhor the practice,so widespread in the smaller south asian osques, of making announcements exclusively in urdu without any regard for the east africans, arabs and converts who are compelled to ask what the heck was being said…nevertheless, i feel that a complete ban on the use of urdu sounds a bit draconian and might not help the learning process of some of the childen.

    having siad that,the learning of urdu, if it didn’t overshadow the whole curriculum and those who didn’t get on with it were given the opportunity to give it up, would be a useful skill as its similarity to persian would give an individual access to a rich body of literature and poetry and open up job opportunities.

    i agree on the issue of the food, though..particularly, if there are people of other cultural backgrounds in the school.

  • africana

    “having said that”..shouldn’t be there.

  • ali khan

    what i want to know is when is mr rational going to ask israel to produce the supernatural document which gives them palestine,from a god it does not believe in? Dont hold your breath people because dick dawkins is a shill and a fraud.

  • Irony of Life

    I agree with various posts here that there is too much cultural emphasis by some groupings who follow Islam. In the UK a lot of the mosques use Urdu or Bengali or even Turkish as their main language but I hope that these mosques change to English as their later generations become more fluent in English than the traditional mother language.
    Having been used to English/Meditarranean bland food myself, I would prefer this kind of halal cuisine where ever I had the choice despite the fact that I do love Pakistani/Indian food sometimes. Recently on a flight to the east, my choice of halal meal was a spicy concoction for breakfast! With the decompression/ compression on these flights, that was a recipe for a walking gaseous chamber. Ali Khan - I think the document that that you refer to has been summarized as: The people (Zionist Jews) of one scripture (Torah)use the scripture (Bible) of another people (Christians) to steal the land of another people (Muslims). The hypocricy herein is completely lost on those Right wing Zionist alliances and their spawn.

  • M Risbrook

    I hope that these mosques change to English as their later generations become more fluent in English than the traditional mother language.

    I wouldn’t hold your breath. There’s anecdotal evidence that a significant fraction of immigrants would like their language to replace English if their group ever becomes a majority of the UK population. There’s concerns on the other side of the Atlantic that by 2060 Spanish could become the main language of the US because of the skyrocketing Hispanic population, so why should the situation be any different in Britain regarding, say, Urdu?

    I find it almost impossible to believe that immigrants will ever abandon their culture, language, and identity if the population is sufficiently large. There are churches in New York City that hold services in foreign languages (notably Polish and Italian) where most of the congregation is descended from European immigrants who arrived in the 19th and early 20th century rather than emigrated to the US in the past 30 or so years.

  • M Risbrook

    Recently on a flight to the east, my choice of halal meal was a spicy concoction for breakfast!

    This is because of repeated requests by recipients of halal meals. Only a few years ago airlines would usually provide the vegetarian meal to those who requested a halal meal unless fish was on the menu. There was resentment from customers who’s palate was generally tuned to spicy meat based dishes. Asian Muslims are not very keen on vegetarian food which is why they request that spicy halal meat based meals are served in schools when the vegetarian meal (that just about every state school now provides) is suitable for their religious requirement.

  • africana

    “There are churches in New York City that hold services in foreign languages (notably Polish and Italian) where most of the congregation is descended from European..”

    that’s an interesting point,in fact, there’s a polish church close to where i used to live in bristol which i thought was just a focalpoint for christians of polish heritage..but maybe they’re actually conducting the servuce in polish. i have met a fair few british pakistani’s who prefer the international atmosphere of the student islamic societies and arab controlled mosques (where english prevails) over mosques under deobandi leadership.

    “There’s concerns on the other side of the Atlantic that by 2060 Spanish could become the main language of the US because of the skyrocketing Hispanic population..”

    i’m not sure why it’s such a concern. surely, the problem is not the language in itself but the way the exclusive use of a language denies full participation and inclusion to some members of a school or congregation. before spanish became the lingua franca you would have to see a change in the ethnic composition of the government, the pace of change would be such that plans would be put in place for the translation of material and the learning of spanish as a second language.

  • africana

    “Asian Muslims are not very keen on vegetarian food which is why they request that spicy halal meat based meals are served in schools when the vegetarian meal (that just about every state school now provides) is suitable for their religious requirement.”

    yes,in fact i had some difficulties with my daughter’s primary school in this regard. i was adamant that i didn’t want her eating the sausage/burgers and chicken, even if they were halal (and i’m sure they were) and so requested the vegetarian option. the school actually spoke to me and assured me it was completely halal kitchen etc.as they were not familiar with muslim eating vegetarian diets and thought that my decision lay in doubts about the nature of slaughter.

  • Irony of Life

    “I wouldn’t hold your breath”.

    The mosque I use actually has their sermon in English and use English as the main language for communication to the congregation. I have attended other mosques that also use English.

  • M Risbrook

    The mosque I use actually has their sermon in English and use English as the main language for communication to the congregation. I have attended other mosques that also use English.

    I am aware that such mosques exist but they are uncommon except in areas where the Muslim community is of a VERY diverse background.

  • Irony of Life

    “I am aware that such mosques exist but they are uncommon except in areas where the Muslim community is of a VERY diverse background.”

    Well at least YOU can stop holding your breath then.

  • Irony of Life

    “Asian Muslims are not very keen on vegetarian food which is why they request that spicy halal meat based meals are served in schools when the vegetarian meal (that just about every state school now provides) is suitable for their religious requirement.”

    My flight was to Asia and the breakfast meal was a vegetarian Halal meal…albeit spicy.

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  • Jim

    Having stumbled across your blog, I dare say I’m not one of your usual readers who quite naturally seem to be from a Muslim background (I was brought up Christian but am now broadly speaking a humanist). Although I don’t agree with Dawkins on everything, I absolutely agree with him on this, faith schools are divisive and unnecessary; why not just remove religion from schools altogether? It simply doesn’t need to be there in the first place. If parents want to teach their kids to follow a faith they have ample opportunity outside of school hours. Let school teach maths, english, PE, art - let kids learn religion in a church or a mosque.

    Dawkins only became such a vocal athiest after his life’s work on genetics, biology and evolution came under sustained attack, mainly by American Christian creationists. If you read his books on science (The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, Ancestor’s Tale etc) you may get a better understanding of the man. He is first and foremost a brilliant writer on science, his social theories are much less developed, he annoys a lot of people with bold and insensitive statements but if you look into what he’s really about he makes much more sense.

    Evolution has become scientific orthodoxy because it works, it is a wonderfully elegant theory with overwhelming evidence in its favour. You have to have an understanding of it in its totality; picking out odd little examples of where you think it doesn’t work just shows ignorance of the bigger picture. Your example of the wasp is a good case in point, there are millions of examples of symbiotic relationships in nature where two species have evolved mutual dependence, or non-mutual dependence on another species. Flowering plants rely on insects for pollenation, the insects rely on the plants for food, over millions of years they become specialised to the point where some insects rely on a single plant and vice versa, it’s not hard to grasp.

    Where religious teaching contradicts science is where Dawkins problem lies; here is a man who as devoted his life to an evidence-based worldview. To see creationism taught as fact, or ridiculous and patently untrue ideas like salt water and fresh water not mixing makes him not only angry, it makes him feel very sorry for the children who are being denied knowledge it has taken centuries of painstaking work for humanity to acquire.

    I know it is hard for people who adhere to a religious text as infallible to take on board ideas which show at the text is not so infallible. It undermines their worldview and makes them feel uncomfortable. Sorry but face facts people - the moon has never been split in two, has it?

    Like nature, religion has to evolve. Human societies need to integrate. Faith schools hold back that progress.

    Peace!

  • Irony of Life

    The above post sounds rather biased and shows that the poster is besotted by little dick. I agree that Muslims as a whole need to mature in behaviour/comportment but Islam is perfect - only imperfection needs to evolve.
    It is actually atheists that are holding back society and causing conflict and hatred. Just look at the hate filled comments by little dick in the media recently against Muslim women. What a man little dick must feel after that liberating attack against defenseless women!