The next holocaust?

Ziauddin Sardar for once has an article worth reading in this week’s New Statesman, entitled The Next Holocuast. It’s on the site’s front page, and can be read once, but is on a “read once, then pay” basis, so don’t go anywhere else as it will do this even if you return to it with the “back” button. Sardar and his photographer colleague Mike Turner travelled in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and France and interviewed various people: local Turkish women, a German insurance broker with his Polish girlfriend in a bar in Dortmund, an economics professor in the same city, a cab driver and the shisha and backgammon set in Eindhoven, Muslim women and an armed police officer in Antwerp, and a fashion designer and a halal butcher in Roubaix. What he found was a pattern of discrimination and alienated communities in all four countries. (Mere Islam has answers to some of Zia’s article.)

In Germany, he interviews the insurance broker and his Polish girlfriend who come out with a list of complaints against the Turkish community. The European immigrant communities are “well integrated”; the Turks aren’t: they “don’t integrate”, “they are conservative, their women cover their heads” and the Qur’an supposedly “tells them to murder Christians”. He has, however, never met a Turk, but he of course has an excuse: they stick to themselves and don’t go to the non-Muslims’ pubs. The local Turkish women, some of whom (as with Pakistanis in this country) cover their heads and some of whom don’t, bear no apparent resemblance to those described, and say they have no idea why the Germans hate them so much. He does not find the sentiment reciprocated, but the teenagers he interviews say they experience racism everywhere, including from school teachers.

Sardar gives a history of German nationhood, a relatively recent phenomenon given that the country was cobbled together from the petty principalities which emerged after the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire. The country “came late to nationalism and colonialism, and caught a bad case of both”, scrambling “briefly and brutally” in the 1880s for colonies (which it lost after World War I); the country was also heavily involved in the Crusades, a factor which weighs heavily on the country to this day:

The Germans embraced the Crusades with great vigour: the first, infamously, commenced at home with pogroms against the Jews. The crusading motif is as important to the German self-image as it ever was; the hatred of Turks I heard was often expressed in crusading language - even if couched in liberal terms.
Wolfram Richter, the economics professor in Dortmund, fears that the anti-Turkish feeling boils down to “old-fashioned racism” and that what happened to Jews in the past could happen to Muslims in the future. I can confirm that anti-Turkish feeling exists in Germany even among “liberal” Germans, as I stayed with a German family in the early 1990s, and when I showed interest in buying a postcard to send home to my family which had several flags including a Turkish one, my friend (who was a SDP supporter) told me I couldn’t buy that one as it had a Turkish flag on it. The Turks, he said, were the Germans’ Pakistanis.

In Eindhoven, Sardar met a female taxi driver who, despite having a Moroccan boyfriend, called the local Moroccans “mostly criminals” and accused them of ruining her country. Those he met at the local shisha bar (next to the official red light district) were old men playing the usual games, who claimed that the Dutch treated them as if they were separate, and without respect or dignity, so they ended up being separate. He meets an IT consultant of Moroccan origin who complains of blatant job discrimination; interviewers ask him what kind of Muslim he is and whether he prays or goes to the mosque; he accused the Dutch of treating the Muslims as “colonial subjects” and assuming that they are all terrorists. It’s notable that the “liberalism” for which the country is so famous does not extend to Muslims, but then it shouldn’t be surprising as this liberalism is all about euthanasia, drugs and prostitution. The country is notorious as a place people go for these things, and among the most bigoted against Muslims are the most morally corrupt people in the country. Of course, they don’t want Muslims spoiling their party.

The colonial theme is continued in the discussion of the situation in Belgium, where Muslims are not considered Belgian even in the third generation and where they report endemic racism, being treated like “colonial subjects”, and being afraid to speak freely. Belgium, of course, had a notoriously brutal colonial record in the Congo, treating the place as a big labour camp. While the term “heart of darkness” has been used to describe Congo/Zaire since it came under native rule, it was used by Joseph Conrad to describe the Belgian-ruled Congo. A police officer in Antwerp calls integration “a one-way street” and rejects accommodation. “We are not a problem. Islam is the problem. Anything is possible where Islam is concerned.” He expects a riot.

Belgium has a constitution which allots self-rule to the different white communities who could not live together, but of course makes no such allowance for immigrant communities. Holland has its much-vaunted liberalism for its own and all the world’s scoundrels, but not for religious immigrants and their descendents. Similarly, France parrots its “liberté, egalité, fraternité” slogan, but in its colonial history never treated its own colonial subjects as equals. The state ideology today dictates that all citizens are “French” and refuses to acknowledge difference, but in reality racism flourishes. Even the physical layout of the cities resembles the colonial pattern: in north Africa, the natives lived in the old cities while the colonisers built their own cities outside them; today in France, the natives live in the old towns and cities while the immigrants are shoved into “suburbs” on the fringes of the towns.

The conclusion I draw from this article is that Europe cannot accommodate any group with a remarkably different lifestyle from the majority. It proved this with its treatment of Jews over the centuries, only really resolved (in western Europe at least) when most of them were massacred, a large number of the remainder fled (perhaps in response to massacres in Poland, perhaps in response to the encroaching Red army), a substantial number had assimilated and had shed those aspects of their religion which necessitated separateness, and the recognition of what anti-Semitism had brought about protected the rest. But for most of history, Europe found one excuse after another to subjugate Jews. They were different, they were disloyal, they regard Palestine as their home and not Europe; there were also the religious reasons. Europe also has a history of inter-communal religious tension, particularly between Catholics and Protestants. And Gypsies are treated as second-class citizens in central Europe, Slovakia and Hungary being well-known examples.

Today, mainland Europe finds similar excuses to deny Muslims the same rights other citizens have. It’s more subtle now, of course; they may not have an officially separate status and be required to be in their ghetto by sundown, but laws exist explicitly banning religious dress in public buildings, with the effect of barring religious Muslim women. It’s particularly cruel that this is often done in the name of feminism, sometimes with the excuse that it “protects” girls from being forced to wear something they don’t want to by their families, but sometimes explicitly because people don’t like what it represents. (Most schools on the continent don’t have uniforms; the issue of parental pressure to wear a headscarf really cuts no ice in a country where thousands of children are expected to wear a uniform they don’t particularly want to wear every day.) The effect, and in some cases the intention, is to make the life of an observant Muslim as difficult as possible. The fact is that the general population can wear pretty much what they like; the normal dress of one community is barred.

It is not just Muslims who are affected, of course. France has indeed assimilated immigrants from all European Christian backgrounds; this route is not open to black Christians from the French Carribean. There have been no pogroms so far, but police harrassment, particularly of young men, is well-known; it is also known of in this country (I heard two calls to the BBC London phone-in this morning by black women who said they had been pulled over by police who came over all apologetic when they realised that they were women!). Sardar notes that the bigotry is just as pronounced among so-called liberals, including those who are relaxed about mixed-race relationships. From my reading of blogs in English, I would suggest that most of this bigotry is these days advanced in the name of liberalism; self-styled “muscular liberals” with both blogs and regular newspaper columns seek to push this country in the same direction. They demand a total separation of religion and state, which in practice means an end to all allowances for Muslims. The reason, of course, is that Muslims are not liberals themselves. Tolerance is not to be extended to intolerance, which is routinely conflated with disapproval.

As for the idea of this leading to another holocaust, I find this both alarmist but also somewhat naive. The Holocaust of the 1940s was a unique event in history; genocides took place before and have done since, but mass murder on that scale was unprecedented. It was not an explosion of mass hatred, but the action of a determined central group in a dictatorial state which they set up in particular political and economic circumstances, and not all those involved knew exactly what was going on. The Hindu extremists in India may have more manpower than the Nazis did, and have been responsible for anti-Muslim riots and pogroms which have led to much loss of life, but they do not have control over a totalitarian state. The point that Europe seems to be blindly repeating its old mistakes is a valid one; it’s too easy to assume that it might lead to a re-run of the Holocaust. If a comparable event takes place, it is more likely to be an altogether new atrocity, perpetrated by people who would be horrified at the thought of taking people to be gassed at Auschwitz.

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  • Shamil

    I don’t think we should exaggerate the extent to which muslims are endangered in Europe.

    I think especially in Britain its not that bad.

    Sardar’s just trying to make a name for himself.

  • DrM

    Great post. I dont agree that the Holocaust is a “unique” event in world history. The trans-atlantic slave trade comes to mind, but nobody, and I mean nobody got it bad as the Native Americans.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    Yusuf,

    Western Europe is now home to many immigrant communities, and not all of them are Muslim. Take France for instance; there are large Armenian, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Middle Eastern Christian, Jewish and other communities. They might complain of discrimination in employment or the less salubrious parts of town they live in (show me what first generation community that doesn’t) but more or less they have integrated and in many cases prospered. In other words, this talk about discrimination and an impending holocaust, has nothing to do with race, but is mainly a cultural issue. I think there are valid reasons why the natives are fearful of a growing Muslim community, its aggressive nature comes to mind. The Madrid and London bombings the murder of Theo Van Goe and the overt threats to any that insult Islam (Islam is Peace: and woe betide anyone who suggests otherwise) have convinced many that there is no place for Islam in Europe. Moreover, it seems a week doesn’t go by without a new rash of arrests of Muslims who were in the planning stages of carrying out murder, I believe a Belgian female convert and her hubby immolated themselves last week in Iraq. So can we really blame the natives for being at least slightly apprehensive about their Muslim neighbors. In the case of southern Germany and Austria many have long memories of the Ottoman threat that was fortunately stopped at Vienna. In fact for most of its 1400 year history Islam, up to the last siege of Vienna, posed an existential threat to Christian Europe. It was reversed in the Iberian pennisula and later in the Balkans but these wounds are still fresh.

    It would be more honest if we admitted that Christians face far more persecution in Muslim lands than what Muslims apparently face in Europe. Southern Sudan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia all come to mind of the odious manner that many people of the cross are treated by the Religion of Peace.

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ Yusuf Smith

    In the case of southern Germany and Austria many have long memories of the Ottoman threat that was fortunately stopped at Vienna. In fact for most of its 1400 year history Islam, up to the last siege of Vienna, posed an existential threat to Christian Europe. It was reversed in the Iberian pennisula and later in the Balkans but these wounds are still fresh.

    As I understand it Austria in particular has vastly less tension between Muslims and the majority community than other countries further north and west do. The events you talk of were longer ago than the Napoleonic wars and you can hardly call those wounds fresh. Bear in mind, Germany and Austria were allied with Turkey against Britain, France etc far more recently than that.

    I don’t know if you read the article, but the point was made at least once in the article that the communities concerned are not first generation immigrants, but often third generation descendents of immigrants. The point that most immigrant communities live in bad parts of town and experience discrimination does hold true for non-Muslim immigrants as well, but the reason the Jews always come to mind is that Europe does not seem able to incorporate different groups as equals, always imposing some restriction or other. By the way, the holocaust quote came from the professor in Dortmund, who is not Muslim, and he cited a number of excuses, none of them related to the wars of centuries past.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    “As I understand it, Austria in particular has vastly less tension between Muslims and the majority community than other countries further north and west do.”

    Is this why the Austrians voted in conservative Joerg Haider a number of years ago. I recall the main issue the left had with him was his anti-immigrant (read Muslim) stance.

    “The events you talk of were longer ago than the Napoleonic wars and you can hardly call those wounds fresh. Bear in mind, Germany and Austria were allied with Turkey against Britain, France etc far more recently than that.”

    Partly true, but Greece’s war of liberation, which our Lord Byron wrote so eloquently about, raised Europeans ire against Islam and the Turk. Indeed, the Napoleonic wars are more recent than our reqonquest of the Balkans. But, the little uppity Corsican was and is still culturally recognizable to most us , even though he was trying to install, by force, Republican values. It could be said this was an inter-European conflict, the same cannot be said of the hordes of turbaned Turks and their alien faith, which was totally unrecognizable to Europe and caused untold damage through its various Jihads and slavery to southeastern Europe.

    As for your contention that non-Muslim immigrants or their children face the same barriers as Muslims. Agreed, but that is the case of immigrants everywhere, even with the Irish, Slavs, and Jews to the new world, even in the great melting-pot of American. Moreover, why is it that the British Sikh and Hindu community has generally prospered in the UK, whereas the south Asian Muslim community hasn’t? (Theo Dalyrmple has written that a full quarter of medical students come from non-Muslim south Asian backgrounds) Sikh’s and Hindu Brits also don’t blow up fellow citizens, or muzzle the natives with silly Fatwa’s. I have lived in France and the amount of French citizens of Armenian, Arab Christian; Magrebi Jewish and Vietnamese extraction who are in the professions has really astounded me. So I really can’t swallow the argument that Euros are irredeemably racist and we are step away from the death camps.

  • Old Pickler

    Sir Toppenhat, you talk a lot of sense.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    Well thank you Old Pickler.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    Yusuf,

    I was just reading a story at Dhimmi Watch about the escalating death threats that are starting to against the Danish artists who had the temerity to draw cartoons of Muhammad. (I have provided the link below.) I believe It’s this type of bullying behaviour that is causing native resentment of Islam and Muslims. One contributer has cogently observed “That the slightest provocation can send muslims into a murderous rage when it comes to anything demeaning, or anything that is desecrating to their religion.” and another wrote “Did you hear about the Jews who threatened to bomb the basilica in Rome because Michelangelo’s sculpture of the prophet Moses housed there has horns?” Good and valid points. I personally think that a lot of Muslims have an unhealthy attachment to their Muhammad and can’t really understand why so many think he is a decent role model.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009267.php#comments

  • Ann

    Sir Toppenhat: “Is this why the Austrians voted in conservative Joerg Haider a number of years ago. I recall the main issue the left had with him was his anti-immigrant (read Muslim) stance.”

    I recall it differently. From what I remember, the problem that the international community had with him was that he was said to have Nazi sympathies and was said to be anti-Semitic. He was friendly with Saddam and Qaddafi, which didn’t help any either. If he had only been anti-Muslim immigration, I don’t think that would have hurt him any.

  • http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ Yusuf Smith

    Is this why the Austrians voted in conservative Joerg Haider a number of years ago. I recall the main issue the left had with him was his anti-immigrant (read Muslim) stance.

    Austria has a system of proportional representation, which means that parties can join the government without actually being explicitly being voted in, which is what happened here. Haider’s power base is in one province, Carinthia, where he is (or was) governor, and where there aren’t that many Muslims.

    As for the Dhimmi Watch story you linked, the threats are the work of a minor rabble rouser in Pakistan and not the policy of his party. This type of behaviour is nothing like typical of the JI; it’s something you expect from the sectarian outfits.

  • Shamil

    “He was friendly with Saddam and Qaddafi, which didn’t help any either. If he had only been anti-Muslim immigration, I don’t think that would have hurt him any.”

    Qaddafi seems to have links with a number of far-right European groups.

  • DrM

    Why would anybody with any sense refer to garbage like “dhimmiwatch”?

  • Bikhair

    Oh here we go again.

  • Bikhair

    Sir Toppenhat,

    I am one of the few Yanks on this blog and a Muslim and I must say that the problems that you guys face with your Muslim population or rather South Asian Muslim population or North African population in the case of France, doesnt at all compare to these same communities in America.

    About the same way Theo Dalyrmple describes Sihks and Hindus in Britain can be applied to most foreign Muslims in America.

    Maybe were are just scared straight in this country. Ha Ha Ha…

    Your analysis, and his doesnt quite hit the mark.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    Shamil,

    Nice moniker you have there, perhaps inspired by Shamil Basayev of the Beslan school massacre fame. If yes, I hope you don’t mimic that chap’s grooming habits.

    Bikhair,

    Well yes and no. America has witnessed a few Muslim converts who have taken up arms against their own country (a few were actually serving in the military at the time) or some actively planning to carry out mass murder. In addition, we can’t forget proportionally the Muslim community is quite tiny compared to what we have in France, Netherlands, Germany, and Britain. I would hazard a guess that if your country was 10% Muslim or more, you would witness the same nonsense from Muslims that Europeans have to put up with. I noted that there were no rebuttals in regards to the success of non-Muslim immigrant groups in Europe in relation to their Muslim neighbors, so I will take it that you agree with me. Ditto regarding the Turks.

    “Maybe were are just scared straight in this country. Ha Ha Ha…”

    Bikhair, I hope your being facetious, I don’t recall a major pogrom against American Muslims after 9/11. If I remember correctly, there were two victims after the attacks, a Sikh and a Coptic Christian. So yes, there are racists in America, but they are stupid. But, please share with us the types of discrimination you gone through. If racial profiling at the Airport or withering stares at Wal-Mart cross your lips, I rest my case. Hypothetically speaking we all know what would happen to the Coptic Christians had they slammed airliners into office blocks in Cairo or Alexandria. There is a huge difference between us, a deep chasm actually.

  • thabet

    It would be more honest if we admitted that Christians face far more persecution in Muslim lands than what Muslims apparently face in Europe.

    Straw man. No one is talking about Christians in Muslims lands. Yusuf is a Briton; he lives and works in Britain. Likewise the people interviewed by Sardar are citizens of their respective European nations. They are not Iranian citizens, Saudi citizens, etc. Concentrate on the issue at hand.

    Moreover, why is it that the British Sikh and Hindu community has generally prospered in the UK, whereas the south Asian Muslim community hasn’t?

    Indian Muslims do quite well, as do those from East Africa (who are of Indian origin anyway). It is Pakistani or Kashmiri Muslims who don’t do so well, as well as those from Bangladesh. There many are reasons for this including cultural, social etc. It’s a two-way street and, of course, people do have to take responsibiltiy for their actions too. But it is naive to assume “religion” is “the cause”.

    As for job discrimination, in the past I’ve performed the “name test”, purely to prove one way or the other the theory that “Muslim” names are discriminated against during job applications (this was conducted by myself and had nothing to do with link I’ve provided). I had a mixed response.

    As for your contention that non-Muslim immigrants or their children face the same barriers as Muslims…

    Why is that blacks in the US still face outright prejudice? Why is monkey chanting against black footballers still so widespread across Europe and that this is considered quite acceptable? Why, after 50 years of living in Britain, are black people still stereotyped, marginalised and also struggling at jobs/education etc. like children of Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin? Of course, given that black Britons, largely of West Indian origin, share many cultural norms, like their religious practices/beliefs, societal attitudes towards sex and marriage, and so on, you cannot pin Britons of Pakistani origin failing solely due to their “culture” or “religion”.

    Indeed, the position of Muslims in the US shows that your theory about a Muslim’s religion is quite wrong.

    None of this is to say that there we’re on the verge of a Holocaust or that “minorities” — in this case Muslims — do not also share something in their predicament (it is a two-way dynamic, but these minorities do not have the power; the state does). But it is to say that the picture is more complicated than you suggest.

  • Bikhair

    Sir Toopenhatt,

    “I would hazard a guess that if your country was 10% Muslim or more, you would witness the same nonsense from Muslims that Europeans have to put up with.”

    Or manybe not. There are places in America with a high concentration of Muslims. Cities in Phillidelphia with alot of Black Muslims, Michigan, and one of the Virginias come to my mind.

    Now if you want to talk about minorities groups and the majoritiy group having to put up with non sense why not talk about black Americans. Some have done well, many have done well, but a heck of alot of them live in similar ghetto communities like those in France, commit a disproportionate number of crimes and with regard to thier education achievement compare, it to thier other groups in this country especially immigrants of all stripes, except hispanics. Yet you dont bring up assimilation or intergration. Why?

    If intergration means that you dont fester in ghettos, commit a disproportionate number of crime, are unemployed, and blame the majority group for you issues than you are describing black America.

    What the hell is assimilation. Those North Africans listen to enough French rap, smoke pot, and live lifestyle different to those of a similar age back in their grandparents country. But because they still have thier crazy names, that tanned complexion, and speak thier grandparents home langauge it is easy to throw out the dubious concept of assimilation and intergration.

    America, and European countries and culture are different, not our Muslims. Though I must admit that we do import better Muslims in regards to thier level of education and financial status. No village Pakistanis here dear.

    “America has witnessed a few Muslim converts who have taken up arms against their own country (a few were actually serving in the military at the time) or some actively planning to carry out mass murder.”

    Oh please.

  • Bikhair

    Sir Toppenhat,

    “Take France for instance; there are large Armenian, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Middle Eastern Christian, Jewish and other communities. They might complain of discrimination in employment or the less salubrious parts of town they live in (show me what first generation community that doesn’t) but more or less they have integrated and in many cases prospered.”

    Maybe we need to see thier population swell to about 10%. Ha Ha Ha.

  • Bikhair

    But wait dont you just love these same arguments being presented on this site as if we have never heard them before? Lovely.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    thabet,

    “Straw man. No one is talking about Christians in Muslims lands.”

    No its actually quite valid because it puts paid to the constant whinging of our Muslim communities here in Europe. In other words you guys have it pretty good.

    “Why is that blacks in the US still face outright prejudice? Why is monkey chanting against black footballers still so widespread across Europe and that this is considered quite acceptable? Why, after 50 years of living in Britain, are black people still stereotyped, marginalised and also struggling at jobs/education etc. like children of Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin? Of course, given that black Britons, largely of West Indian origin, share many cultural norms, like their religious practices/beliefs, societal attitudes towards sex and marriage, and so on, you cannot pin Britons of Pakistani origin failing solely due to their “culture” or “religion”.”

    Sniff, Sniff, Sob, Sob. I’ll put on my hairshirt and pray for penance.

  • Mike

    Sir Toppenhat your an idiot!

    Why Do think the Arabs Hate Us? It’s Our Foreign Policy, Stupid.

    The greatest living president this one time he said “Its the economy stupid.” He was talking about how “that” was the importan thing (the economy). You see, William Jefferson Clinton was not making a insult, he was making it cristal clear. It become a famous “catch frays”.

    Arab’s been killing so many are brave service menanwomen, now even peace activeists, did you ever axe your self why. You think its for no reason? Well I going to tell you.

    It’s are foreign policy stupid.

    We give Palestine to the Isreal neo cons when there was all ready Palestians living on the land (of the sovereign country of Palestine). And we give Isreal atomic bombs. Of course they Palestians blow up the neo cons with suicide bomb matyrs, they don’t have no atomic bombs. There own children bomb belts its the only weapon they have, they love the land so much, they must use it, to get there land back. Of course. We made them do it with are own foreign policy.

    What if it was you’re land.

    Think about it

  • Mike

    Sir Toppenhat, I’m not finished with you!

    Arabs and Mosloms as a ppl are not stupid per say. They are some of them stupid, some of them relly crafty, wily, clever.

    Case of point: You think Saddam was stupid? LOLOs He held together the country of Iraq against all the odds of a rogue hyperpower with nothing but pure spit, ditermination and statecraft, and he did it for DECADES!

    I’m not saying he was good, so don’t even go there. Saddam was bad, bad, bad. He was like Leroy Brown bad. Maybe the baddest that we may never see his likes again. But there are some things even worse than that kind of bad….

  • George Carty

    We give Palestine to the Isreal neo cons when there was all ready Palestians living on the land (of the sovereign country of Palestine). And we give Isreal atomic bombs. Of course they Palestians blow up the neo cons with suicide bomb matyrs, they don’t have no atomic bombs. There own children bomb belts its the only weapon they have, they love the land so much, they must use it, to get there land back. Of course. We made them do it with are own foreign policy.

    What if it was you’re land.

    Put in those terms Zionism makes no sense at all.

    Maybe that’s the reason for Bush’s “Spain to Indonesia” speech - Muslims as jackbooted conquerors is much better propagandistically than Muslims as anti-imperialist guerillas.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    Mike,

    You are a living, writing example of the term stupid.

    You are an embarrassment to humanity. Your imagination does not equal fact.

  • Mike

    Sir Toppehat

    Do you want to adres teh substance of what I made or MAKE AB HOMAMAN ATACKS????? hmmm I wonder????

  • Old Pickler

    What is an ‘ab homaman atack’? Learn to spell.

  • http://martijn.religionresearch.org/?p=1130 C L O S E R

    New Statesman - The next holocaust

    New Statesman - The next holocaust Cover story Ziauddin Sardar Monday 5th December 2005 Islamophobia is not a uniquely British disease: across Europe, liberals openly express prejudice against Muslims. Do new pogroms beckon? Ziauddin Sardar re…

  • thabet

    Sniff, Sniff, Sob, Sob. I’ll put on my hairshirt and pray for penance.

    In other words you have nothing to add to the debate, other than whinging and moaning about Muslims yourself.

  • http://kittykittykillkill.blogspot.com Snooo

    Yusuf, I agree with you that the Holocaust itself was a unique event in history that is unlikely to have an exact parellel. However, considering how Stalin’s crimes were executed, the potential for bureaucracy to pass the buck of comitting evil has never really went away.

    Now it wouldn’t happen here (cross fingers) but I wonder in places such as the Netherlands where they seem to be so scared of their native Muslim believers that bureaucratic oppression, if not a genocide, could take place. Progroms? It could happen, but they don’t quite come to the scale of a “holocaust”. The next ten years will be very interesting times.

  • peter

    “Muslims as jackbooted conquerors is much better propagandistically than Muslims as anti-imperialist guerillas.”

    Laugh out bloody loud, man. The history of Islam is one of naked, bloody imperialism.

  • Asma bin Marwan

    Amen to that Peter!

  • Sir Toppenhat

    I have often wondered myself why the placid Dutch are frightened of “their native Muslim believers” I wonder if their scared of their Jews, Hindus or Buddhists? Good heavens what have the Muslims done! But lets all (cross fingers) and hope the Dutch don’t get too fed up with their “native Muslim believers”

  • George Carty

    Peter,

    Not in the last 200 years or so - that’s my real point.

  • Asma Bint Marwan

    George,

    You don’t need Jackbooted Waffen SS type storm troopers when you can conquer a place through demography.

  • Sean

    The history of Islam is one of naked, bloody imperialism.

    Historically inaccurate. There was plenty of bloody imperialism and also a lot of peaceful conversion. Muslim history is nuanced - like our own.

  • George Carty

    Asma, why are you posting under an Arab-sounding pseudonym?

  • Asma Bint Marwan

    George,

    I’m second generation Lebanese/Syrian.

  • Asma Bint Marwan

    Sean,

    Bloody imperialism or peaceful conversion. Pick your poison the end result is the same. (excuse the redundancy)

  • http://bartlettsbizarrebazaar.blogspot.com Andrew Bartlett

    “I have often wondered myself why the placid Dutch are frightened of “their native Muslim believers”“

    Sir Toppenhat - if that were an argument I would expect you, in the 1930s, to have written; “I have ofetn wondered myself why the placid Germans are frightened of their native Jewish believers”.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    Andrew,

    You have a lot of gall. I don’t recall Dutch Jews threatening their Gentile neighbors for insulting Moses, nor do I remember any Dutch gentiles being murdered by Jewish fanatics for insulting Judaism. Did French Jews in the 40s riot in Paris and burn cars, businesses, and churches? Were gangs of Jews being arrested weekly in the 30’s for planning terror attacks against their fellow citizens. Did European Jews blow up trains and buses along with their passengers?

    I don’t think so, but according to you, I must have fascist leanings for stating the obvious. I surmise you’re a Muslim convert or a blinkered leftist.

  • http://bartlettsbizarrebazaar.blogspot.com Andrew Bartlett

    European Jews were accused of all manner of crimes; Communism, thievery, exploitative landlordism, being an alien minority with dual loyalties.

    Now, had you lived in the 1930s, one couldn’t blame you if you believed in these stories. There were ‘truths’ in them, if you looked at the world in a particular way.

    Now, if you look at the world through the lens offered by Melanie Phillips, you may come to a similar view of Muslims as you might have Jews in the 1930s.

    The question is, had you believed, as many people in the 1930s did, that Jews were as they were portrayed, then what action do you believe ought be taken. That is the test of your decency and humanity, not what you take of the recieved wisdom of the day.

    My point is this; in the 1930s, you would have been an anti-Semite. And now, in the 21st Century, you are an Islamophobe, reproducing the anti-human rhetoric of the day.

  • http://bartlettsbizarrebazaar.blogspot.com Andrew Bartlett

    Gangs of Jews were arrested weekly for being Communists or anarchists.

    Gangs of Jews were arrested weekly for being criminals - such is the lot of being a miserable underclass.

    Congratulations, Sir Toppenhat, for demonstrating your weakness for the fashionable hatred.

    And you are not a fascist. Fascism is an ideology of power that, like capitalism, is only incidentally racist. You, on the other hand, are electoral fodder for explicitly racist parties.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    “My point is this; in the 1930s, you would have been an anti-Semite.”

    How can you make such a stupid, sweeping claim? You know nothing of me. If I had been brought up in 1930’s Paris or Berlin I would have noticed the amount of Jews, both German and French, that had fought and fallen for their respective country’s in the First World War, I also would have noted the amount of Jews in industry, the arts, politics and other spheres of life. I would have said this is what we, as Gentiles, should emulate. I’m sorry but I have an all-together different view of the Muslim community. It is strictly Muslim mis-beviour that I hold such (to you) unpatable views. I do feel like this in regards to other swarthier elements in our population. Europe lost a lot by murdering its Jews, but what has Europe gained by allowing in millions of Muslims.

    Islamaphobe, what a silly word you would be mad not to be.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    Andrew

    I think its high time you threw away your crack pipe and start a ten-step program. However, that’s only a start, you will forthwith throw away all your Chomsky and back issues of the New Statesmen and New Left Review. You will cancel your subscription to The Guardian and begin rehab by reading the Daily Telegraph.

    I will periodically check on your progress.

  • http://bartlettsbizarrebazaar.blogspot.com Andrew Bartlett

    Top, you prove my case. You claim, out of history, that, had you lived in the 1930s you would have been immune to the anti-Semitic propaganda that so many people did fall for. Yet you fall for stories of the same construction, the same shape, right now, three quarters of a century later. So what is it to be? Relgious suppression? Mass deportation? Or the ‘new holocaust’?

    I am sad that you wear the badge of Islamophobe with pride, though, back in the 1930s, many educated, indeed Telegraph-reading men and women would have proudly proclaimed their anti-Semitism.

  • http://bartlettsbizarrebazaar.blogspot.com Andrew Bartlett

    “I would have noticed the amount of Jews, both German and French, that had fought and fallen for their respective country’s in the First World War, I also would have noted the amount of Jews in industry, the arts, politics and other spheres of life.”

    That is a far more stupid statement than the one that I made. My statement was made in the knowledge that tremendous numbers of Europeans were anti-Semites in the 1930s despite this evidence you claim that you would ‘select’. These people believed the stories that told them that Jews were a danger; religious economic, political or moral. Thus, unless you think that somehow you are of a different kind to those Europeans, it is reasonable to suggest that both you and I would have been anti-Semites had we lived in the 1930s, exposed to that milleu.

    Given that you are so keen to lap up the Islamophobic stories, I suggest that, all else being equal, you would in fact be more susceptible to succumbing to the weight of popular prejudice.

    Finally, I enjoy your personal insults. They are chamngly inept. Yes, I am a ‘leftist’, and with that label comes to a commitment to equality, despite the obstacles of popular mores. As your post shows, you embrace these mores, especially when they divide human beings and make some less than others.

  • Shamil

    “How can you make such a stupid, sweeping claim? You know nothing of me. If I had been brought up in 1930’s Paris or Berlin I would have noticed the amount of Jews, both German and French, that had fought and fallen for their respective country’s in the First World War, I also would have noted the amount of Jews in industry, the arts, politics and other spheres of life.”

    So how do explain all the anti-semitism back then. Even most conservatives in Britain back then were anti-semitic let alone on the continent.

    “I would have said this is what we, as Gentiles, should emulate.”

    This is a prime example of the demented gentile self-hatred of the neo-con types (the ones who aren’t jewish anyway). Your statement assumes that gentiles were not already engaged in these activites (including strangely fighting in world war one). If you think so lowley of the European identity then why do try to defend it.

    “I do feel like this in regards to other swarthier elements in our population.”

    Please go on.

    “Europe lost a lot by murdering its Jews”

    The Nazis murdered the jews not Europe. What exactly did Europe loose?

  • Sir Toppenhat

    Andrew,

    Your right, I would have been an Anti-Semite if Jews in the 30s were flying aircraft into Parliament, blowing up the tube the odd passenger train, murdering or threatening anyone who insulted their prophets or religion. But being the humane guy I am I would have chosen mass deportation, I have a weak stomach and a conscious, so genocide would have been out of the question.

    “Given that you are so keen to lap up the Islamophobic stories.”

    Andrew what Islamophobic stories are you referring to? Are you arguing that Muslims don’t participate in the outrages I have described above, and they don’t justify them in the name of Islam? Well if that’s Islamaphobia, I’m an Islamophobe.

  • Sir Toppenhat

    Shamil

    “This is a prime example of the demented gentile self-hatred of the neo-con types (the ones who aren’t Jewish anyway). Your statement assumes that gentiles were not already engaged in these activities (including strangely fighting in world war one). If you think so lowley of the European identity then why do try to defend it.”

    My point is that Jews were and are over represented in the professions and arts. They are an extremely gifted people and many Gentiles admire them for it. No self-hatred there.

  • Mike

    Sir Toppenhat,,

    I notice and agree with others on this blog that youre very intolerint of Mosloms. I had my own problem with them but eventually grew out of my predudices. When I was in law school, (briefly) (long story - don’t go there) (as in don’t ask, not as in don’t go to law school) (although that particular one was subpar (if you ask me), I got into a little conflict with one of my neighbors. I find it eluminating in light of the (wrong) Iraq war.

    I lived in a little studio apartment on the second floor and below me was a preem medical student from India named Arun. Now, keep in mind here that Arun was not perfect (by our (Western) standards) downstairs neighbor either, anymore than I was. (Upstairs). Many’s a time where, I would be up at 3-4 A.M. kept awake by his stereo (“I Got The Power” - C&C Music Factory - his favorite) or by him talking LOUDLY to family back home in India in native language Hindy (Note: as many ignorant Americans (Neandertheals) not realize - language spoken by Indians (from India) not Indian, language spoken by Indians Hindy). At first I got frustrate - But, I would always tell myself, He is from a different culture and I must be tolerant. If I cannot tolerant his culture at 4 A.M> then where does that leave us. (I would have to apologize to him for being so intolerant, frankly). The true test of multi cultural tolerance occurs at 4 A.M. (Just a little aphorism I thought up - you can use it) So, I would switch on late nite Bob Costas show or Twilite Zone rerun and wait till his culture calms down (just, alittle).

    Meanwhile, however, I offended him something greatly, for which still feel guilty. You see when I was (still) in law school (officially) I spent ALOT of time hackysacking. (In my apartment - no good place to do it outside). You know - for exercise. I would stand there and hackysack in front of TV to wile away the time and sweat. Day or night. (You’re probably wondering was there enough space in studio apartment to hackysack - well there was (just barely) if I move E-Z chair and keep control (the secret: use your knees ALOT)). Well, I must of hackysacked through 90% of both OJ trials (if you ask me). (In retrospect— probably would of been better to attend more lawschool classes. Water under the bridge as they say).

    Now I guess Arun could hear this thumping on ceiling. At first probably I assumed that in his culture (diverse) such noises - normal. (Hustle and bustle of big Indian city - Multi cultural diverse people LOVE the noises/smells (i.e. excitement!) of big city)( I assumed). But apperently (from what I could piece together) he “has to study for MCAT” or whatever bla bla bla (I admit, did not understaned his diverse accent too well. Mostly gazed at his cloths (VERY stylish dresser)

    So I had offended him - my downstairs neighbor. I had overstepped the bounds of good neighborship. I had crossed the line. I recognize that (now). But at the time I didn’t realize.

    So Arun (wise) - here’s what he did. Typed up note on word processor - slipped under my door. Something about “Dear Neighbor” can you stop that infernal racket / noisy behavior raucous and rude (some words - rather long) (diverse Indians have suprirsingly large English vocabulary) (I’ve noticed). Well that’s the end of the story YOU KNOW WHY? Because I actually listened to his note and changed behavior accordingly. (I’m can be quite rather sensitive and compassionate to other peoples’s needs, infact). I stopped indoor hackysack so much (for exercise switch to: night hikes) and Kept it down alittle. (New indoor hobby: making collages). Well soon enough I was out of there (lawschool) anyway so Arun got his peace and all’s swell that ends well.

    What does this have to do with our current predicament, youask?

    We (are foreign policy) was bothering Arabs Muslims governments in the Middle East. NOT being good friendly neighbors (if you ask me), just like me with my indoor hackysacking. No. We were constraining their behavior / preventing various regimes from doing what they want to do/ expanding as they wish / arming to defend themselves / etc. In short: we offended them.

    On 9/11 we received our “note” (like note Arun to me) asking (kindly, gently) (ok 3000+ kill (stock brokers mostly) to make point better) to stop our behavior. This was a chance (an opportunity) to make a mends by LISTENING (like I did, to polite note from C&C Music Factory fan) and changing are behavior accordingly as per all there wishes (ie. no American troops or citizens on Arabian peninsula anywhere/ dive vest from Israel completely,udderly / stop blockade of Iraq i.e. let Saddam trade with whomever however do/kill whatever he wishes / kick non Muslims out of Sudan / kick Russians out of Chechnya / kick Serbians out of Easter Europe / kick Indians out of Indian peninsula / etc.) Whatever - just good friendly neighbor behavior. This would of been civilized thing to do.

    But instead - we made WAR on Muslims (something that should NEVER be happen - TOTALLY offensive to Muslims and against their religion). In Afghanistan but more improtantly to everything - In Iraq.

    Keeping with neighbor analogy - This would of been like me reading Arun’s note and then going downstairs with sword (like envisioned numbrous times) to chop off his DAMN HEAD for BLASTINGT that STUPID “I got the power” song at ALL HOURS OF THE FRICKIN NIGHT. WTF!!

    And I’m too civilized for that. More improtantly: I’m too tolerant.

    I’m a good neighbor. To Saddam, the US was a bad neighbor. And that’s really just about all there is to it.

  • Mike

    Toppenhat

    “My point is that Jews were and are over represented in the professions and arts. They are an extremely gifted people and many Gentiles admire them for it. No self-hatred there.”

    This statement is downright ORWELLIAN (this is refernece to Orwell(George) in case your to igrnorant to know.)

  • Shamil

    “They are an extremely gifted people”

    Wow. He believes in eugenics as well.

  • anonymous

    Andrew what Islamophobic stories are you referring to? Are you arguing that Muslims don’t participate in the outrages I have described above, and they don’t justify them in the name of Islam? Well if that’s Islamaphobia, I’m an Islamophobe.

    The above is a quote from Sir Toppenhat’s post. Can somebody read it again and tell me where the oddity and absurdity lies.

    First three right answers get my “Help The Ignorant” award, which I shall type on the screen and address to their nickname.

  • anonymous

    MIKEEY!

    I enjoy you posts! ha ha ha!

    You’ve certainly reached nirvana heights.

    Send us a rope!

  • Ben

    Funny Hitler and anti-semites accused us of contributing ‘nothing to the arts in the past 2,000 years’ and of being ‘cultural parasites’.