Indigo Jo Blogs

I read Manal's article in the Guardian yesterday and feel compelled to make a comment.

It was quite uncomfortable reading for me as I like to think of myself as quite open-minded yet do find myself looking twice at the spectres of women I see in my UK city, particularly in the university, wearing the full niqab and dark glasses. I think the Muslim practise of covering up would not be offensive to feminists of my school of thought if men were required to do the same as women. As it stands, it seems that the culture that demands women to cover up regards their bodies as unsightly or abject. That's very sad.

However, I totally understand Manal's discomfort following the bullying she suffered at the David Lloyd's fitness club last month, and I am so sorry she feels she can no longer visit her swimming pool. Why should you be required to uncover if it makes you feel uncomfortable?

It's a difficult topic, and hard to decide where one stands. Of course, tolerance is always better than intolerance and I have no problem with the cover-all swimsuit. I hope Manal finds a pool that welcomes her and where she feels comfortable.

Annie: Manal Omar allowed herself to be pictured in the Guardian wearing considerably less than the women in your university who wear niqab with dark glasses, so I presume she is not one of the women you refer to!

You just have to have a look at the website of Hargey's organisation, the Muslim Educational Centre, to see here he is coming from. There are plenty of links to websites of our friends, the "Progressive" Muslims.

Nadir: Hargey belongs to the hadeeth-rejecting cult, as several of MECO's press releases make clear.

Annie, Manal Omar is to women's rights what cheap illegal labourers are to unionised workers; her presence can only bid wage stuctures downward.

So you're concern for her comfort level is misplaced to the point of masochism. You really don't understand the supremacist chauvinism that motivates her, do you?

This de-peopled female isn't interested in "rights" as you and I understand them. Were that not the case, her indignation would instead be directed at the creepy misogynists riddling the Muslim world. Creeps like the morality police currently patrolling the streets of Iran punching and kicking women who declare their independance from men by showing some hair.

Manal sees only those abuses, and trite they are, that allow her to grandstand and bang on non-muslims. Her swimsuit is but a prop to this end. So what's the point of sympathising with someone whose actions and behavior, though not her words natch, clearly demonstrate her opposition to any choice?

The confused and pathetic heretic you "feel" for is an advocate of theocratic enslavement for women, and should, thus, be an object of searing ridicule, NOT admiration.

She is the enemy, not just of you, but of decent, clean, moderate Muslim women, as well.

Is Dames' Delight still open? Women only and naked bathing. Problem solved.

The safety concern about swimsuits like the one in the picture goes back many years: the Rev Francis Kilvert was not allowed to bathe naked- as had been the custom- in Brighton, lest it cause offence to the ladies [mere women didn't count] and made to wear bathing drawers that sound remarkably similar to what Ms. Manal wears. They became tangled in his legs and he nearly drowned.

Thersites comments' aside, it's clear that most people believe that people swimming should wear something, and that there are basic guidelines for dress. I would think that if Manal's swimsuit caused her to drown, she wouldn't be wearing it, and wouldn't be alive. But John P doesn't seem like the coherent and logical sort to begin with.

I would also say that from what she's said in her article above, she doesn't object to other women wearing less or imposing her codes on other people, but on being allowed to swim without other people (as is clearly stated in the story) imposing their codes on her.

Given that she's also just as conservative as most women were in England only two or three centuries ago, I don't get the frothing at the mouth business. But who cares, it's better they come online and froth here, so that we know what kind of hatred we have to face later on.

Well, Oxford is the home of lost causes and [as David Cameron can confirm] the home of dressing up in silly clothes, so it's an appropriate place for Ms. Manal's costume.

As a matter of interest, what about Ms. Manal swimming in the presence of- from a muslim viewpoint- improperly dressed men? I'd have thought that if she has to dress in an islamic way in the presence of men then so too should the men she swims with.

Thersites, one's own following of religious law is in no way dependent on other people's following of it. If she was tempted by those men, that might be a reason for her not to go there, but one thing far more true about women then about men is that they can control their gaze; not that women are not attracted to men by appearance, but I would think that there are far more half-naked women on billboards then half-naked men would point to something in the difference between male and female responses to the opposite gender.

To be honest, though I'm absolutely opposed to the face veil, I don't think this costume is a big deal. As long as it's safe and the woman is not trying to impose it on anyone else, then she should be left to swim in peace. Or five pieces, as the case may be.

She should not, I think, take umbrage at polite comments and enquiries about what is an unusual costume. However, bullying of any kind is unacceptable.

The case is not comparable with the niqab, which is a barrier to communication and has security implications.

The point has already been made that one of the reasons non-Muslims object to Muslim dress is that the modesty rules only ever seem to apply to women. Men dress just like non-Muslims a lot of the time. With Orthodox Jews, the dress rules seem to apply to both sexes.

Some losers really have nothing better to do then pick on woman over dress. It borders on some sort of bizarre paraphilia. BNP rejects like pRickler, therShites and john palubwhisky need to get a life and a hobby which doesn't involve slobbering online.

DrM - did you actually read my post?

annie0404,

"As it stands, it seems that the culture that demands women to cover up regards their bodies as unsightly or abject. That's very sad."

There are generally two arguments that people like you hold. Either the woman's bodies inspires so much lust in men, that they must cover, or their bodies or so objectionable that they must cover it. Without engaging with Isamic scripture it is a fact that a womans body does inspire lust in a man. It is supposed to. Its nudity very crying out loud. Any naked body will inpsire a reaction. It is more often the case that a womans body will inspire more of a reaction from men than the opposite for so many reasons. Men and women arent the same. Consider the site of a bare breasted man and a bare breasted woman. We are different, like it or not.

"one's own following of religious law is in no way dependent on other people's following of it."

How do people decide what is a valid interpretation of religious law then, Dawud? If men are as incapable of controlling their gaze as you maintain then surely they should be encouraged to learn to do so, rather than their incompetence being pandered to.

Dr Mabuse, witty and apposite as ever, completely misses the point, as usual. You really must stop projecting your obsessions on other people.

I would think that if Manal's swimsuit caused her to drown, she wouldn't be wearing it, and wouldn't be alive. But John P doesn't seem like the coherent and logical sort to begin with.

Um.. that was Thersite's statement, Dawud

Such a weak-minded mistake begs the question; do you even know what coherent means?

Your Islamist indoctrination is so complete, you no longer have the patience and discipline to read what non-muslims post. In fact, you can't really even acknowledge their existence and their value, can you?

Some losers really have nothing better to do then pick on woman over dress.

If you wish to portray the thugs staffing Iran's dress police as losers, I'm fine with that. They certainly are, aren't they?

Without engaging with Islamic scripture it is a fact that a womans body does inspire lust in a man. It is supposed to. Its nudity very crying out loud.

I believe I already explained to you, on another thread at another website, just why Islamic "scripture" is destructive of humanity.

The lust is in the man's mind, it isn't in the women's body. Therefore it is encumbant upon males, as it is in The West, to controle their filthy, animalistic urges. If men are raised to have the emotional/sexual age of 5 and 6 year-olds, it is no wonder they're unable to take responsability for their actions and to controle their urges. A mulsima in a vieil sends non- muslims but one message; your menfolk are useless gits.

Westerners ( Christians) have been going to mixed beaches for a century with rape an almost unknown occurence.

Manal's bathing suit isn't a symptom of our bigotry, rather it proves that Muslim women are too powerless and downtrodden to instill discipline and self-controle in their male offspring....THE crucial rloe of any responsable mother.

She wears it because her nurtering and mothering instincts are an abject failure. Her and her ilk raise infantalised, cry-baby males with in sufficient behavioral bounderies for the creation and maintenance of civil culture.

Depraved females =s depraved males.

John, you're the one who rationalized murder the other day, saying that it was justified for Serbians to kill muslim Bosnians as 'interlopers' - and you're telling me that I have difficulty to "acknowledge their existence and their value, can you?" - rather telling, that tells me more about you.

You apparently think that killing people on behalf of their ancestors displays your humanity and respect, please tell us more, because apparently only you know what humanity and respect is.

You apparently don't think the raping and killing of Bosnian muslims is inhumane, and don't think that the Byzantine empire was in any way oppressive or dehumanizing, and have implicitly constructed a model of the West that is humane and beyond criticism, and retroactively extends back (does that include the Roman empire before it became Christian, or just the period after the evil muslims, John?)...

So, please do tell me more about how to become humane and tolerant, like you, Milosevic and Karadzic?

"Manal's bathing suit isn't a symptom of our bigotry, rather it proves that Muslim women are too powerless and downtrodden"

Really? For the life of me I can't understand the logic behind this thinking. Manal freely chose to wear the hijab and burkini. No other women in her immediate family wears a hijab and she lives in the US where there are no morality police. She chose to wear a hijab when she didn't have to and in doing so, she exercised the one power every feminist fights for...choice. Yet, to you, her dress "proves" that she is "powerless." Really?

The feminist movement and women's rights aren't about letting women show skin. It's about not controlling women and letting them decide for themselves what's best for them.

When you condemn Manal for covering up, how are you any better than the morality police in Iran who would condemn her for showing her skin? Should we force her to expose her breasts whenever she swims? How does forcing a women to show skin while swimming any different from forcing her wear a hijab in public? I know this is a far fetched idea, but what if we allow women to make choices for themselves and not condemn them when they make a decisions that differ from what we men think is best for them!! Or do you think Manal only has power when she lets you decide what's best for her?

Manal lives in a society where she is encouraged not to wear a hijab. In the face of discrimination she stood up and exercised her right to wear what she wants. Now, she's working for women's rights around the world (including risking her life in Iraq). Anyone who thinks this is a "powerless and downtrodden" woman doesn't know any powerful women.

By the way, John Palubiski I think it's funny that you use "weak minded mistake" in the same sentence where you use the phrase "beg the question" incorrectly. I'm not saying you're weak-minded but if you're going to attack someone's intellectual capacity, yours better be flawless.

Asalamu Alaikum.

This is an interesting debate. As a Muslim woman who wears the veil I must say what Manal Omar is facing is ridiculous. Being a Muslim in North America and Europe is extremely difficult, and even more difficult for Muslim women. In the Western part of the world Muslim women are perceived as oppressed and powerless, but it is important to distinguish the status of women in Islam and how much their culture shapes their identities. Manal Omar is facing these problems because she is perceived as not belonging to this society, and if she wants to belong she has to dress and look like the norm, but the moment you look different you no longer belong. The Muslim women in UK need stand up for their rights, as beings who are part of the society, and far most they need to address their own concerns. I’m blessed to be a Canadian because, by the Mercy of God, Canada is the greatest country. I remember, in elementary school (I never wore pants in Public, ever) I used to wear skirts in gym class and my gym teacher (who was a male) was very understanding of this issue.

Here in Ottawa there are two privately owned fitness facilities, which accommodate the needs of women, Muslim women included. Florida Fitness and Good Life Fitness, I have been a member of Florida Fitness for the past 4 years. I have also been a member of Good Life for one year. I like Florida because, they have a swimming pool, which is open to both genders majority of the time, but because there are so many Muslim women members they allocate the pool one hour each day to women only. The hours vary to accommodate the different schedules of women.

There are number of ways in which Muslim women can stay active and not cause a disturbances to anyone, Florida Fitness is a Co-Ed facility, but the women have their own facility and the Muslim women are able to take advantage of this space. Florida Fitness does not accommodate the needs of Muslim men, but Muslim men have an option: Outdoors. Muslim women have that option too, but they need to be modest in doing their activities and wear the appropriate gears. When I jog in public, I wear my veil, a dress that is modest enough and running shoes; however, I only run after 9pm when it’s dark enough, and by this time hardly anyone is outside, only cars going by.

With all that said I want to address, Old Pickler. Old Pickler, you need to get this in your head that is if you have a thinking head. (“To be honest, though I'm absolutely opposed to the face veil, I don't think this costume is a big deal.”)

We wear the veil because it’s an act that is pleasing to our creator, you know the one who created, the one who you will return to in short time. I remember you made a comment about the veil in another discussion, but I let that one pass, but don’t think for moment I will this time. It’s funny how less clothing on a woman denotes liberation and freedom for you, and you say nothing of these women, but the moment these same women take away your perverted pleasure, all of sudden you have a say. Well, take that say and shove it where it belongs. Just as you are entitled to your body, I am entitled to my body and what I choose to do with my body shouldn’t concern you Mr. Old Pickler!

what I choose to do with my body shouldn’t concern you Mr. Old Pickler!

Well, it doesn't. But I'm rather concerned - and rather amused - that you have given me a sex change, albeit a cyber-sex-change.

I'm female. And straight, before you ask, not that it matters.

And did you actually read my post? I said it was fine for her to wear the swimsuit as long as it wasn't dangerous and she wasn't imposing it on other people.

I have issues with the face veil, but rest assured, it is not because I want to see lots of naked female flesh. Not my thing.

This is hilarious…I had no idea you were a female please disregard my comment.I just find it frustrating when people make such a fuss about a piece of clothing on a woman’s face. I mean its not that difficult to comprehend, obviously this act has a value that you possibly cannot understand, so go find something better to converse about. Just out of curiosity what are of the issues you have with the face veil? Perhaps, since I wear a face veil I can address some of your concerns. If you prefer to discuss it privately feel free to email me…(ardo14 at yahoo.com). Again, please disregard the comment.

I have the rgeat honor of knowing Manal personally, as she was my colleague at Georgetown University for several years while we were both getting our MA degree. Not only is she an incredibly intelligent and brilliant woman, but extremely respectful of others. I only wish the respect and dignity Manal has strived to attain, both for herself and for others around the world, were more present in the minds of those who only see a "burkini" in her, and not the dignified and beautiful human being she is. p.s. I am not a Muslim but a secular atheist.

So, please do tell me more about how to become humane and tolerant, like you, Milosevic and Karadzic?

Uh..this is a posting about a not-too-attractive heretic displaying her Abrahamic confusion.

Perhaps you've been looking at old copies of Cosmo, Dawud, and were overcome by the porn....

Being a Muslim in North America and Europe is extremely difficult, and even more difficult for Muslim women

That's mainly the fault of muslim women themselves. Their arrogance and supremacism is the root casue of their difficulties adapting

In the Western part of the world Muslim women are perceived as oppressed and powerless, but it is important to distinguish the status of women in Islam and how much their culture shapes their identities.

Muslim women have the world's highest rates of illiteracy and the lowest rates of eduction.

That's a fact, not a mere "perception".

And backward tribal societies characterised by racid theocratic diktats don't class as "cultures".

I just find it frustrating when people make such a fuss about a piece of clothing on a woman’s face. I mean its not that difficult to comprehend, obviously this act has a value that you possibly cannot understand, so go find something better to converse about.

Let's see, first a face-veil is a mere piece of cloth, easy to comprehend. Then, in the next breath, it is an act of the deepest meaning, a meaning that only the enlightened hailing from illiterate hell-holes can understand.

Obviously an open, civil society is a concept you and your ilk, Ardo, cannot possibly understand, ( hint, it's about transparency and honesty), so go find someplace else to live.

Women Iran are currently being harassed and physically attacked by morality squads imposing mindless, out of date dress-codes of the kind you "choose" to adopt.

Surely you'd find the prospect of living there most attractive.

those who only see a "burkini" in her, and not the dignified and beautiful human being she is. p.s. I am not a Muslim but a secular atheist

You are nothing of the sort; you are a plump, clucking broiler cheering on Harlan Saunders.

Stop and think, idiot.

We wear the veil because it’s an act that is pleasing to our creator, you know the one who created, the one who you will return to in short time.

You've no grasp whatsoever of Abrahamic scriptures, do you?

God is disgusted by such obsequious, grovelling behavior.

God exhorts us to liberation, whereas satan imposes submission and slavery.

In the face of discrimination she stood up and exercised her right to wear what she wants. Now, she's working for women's rights around the world (including risking her life in Iraq). Anyone who thinks this is a "powerless and downtrodden" woman doesn't know any powerful women. : D. Smith.

Had this backward ninny any courage whatsoever, she'd be in Iran engaging in "resistance" by challenging the beatings, the violence and the intimidation of Bronze-Age morality squads

But she isn't.

She's in Iraq promoting the same backward dysfunctional mentalities and mindsets that lead to the creation of morality squads, so what does that TELL YOU of her committment to "choice"?

You never think, do you?

You just emote.

"!I only wish the respect and dignity Manal has strived to attain, both for herself and for others around the world, were more present in the minds of those who only see a "burkini" in her, and not the dignified and beautiful human being she is. "

Er, no, A.C.F., it's seeing her in a burkini that amuses us, not seeing a burkini in her. I am willing to accept that Ms. Manal has the admirable qualities you attribute to her; if so it makes it all the more ridiculous that she spends her time worrying about precisely what complicated arrangement of clothing will permit her to exercise without offending her hypothetical creator.

in case John, who can't be expected to remember what he writes day-by-day, including the following: Some here seem to think it racist and intolerant to boot out individuals who arrived, uninvited, on the heels of a brutal mililtary conquest. It isn't. See here

the following was in response: John, you're the one who rationalized murder the other day, saying that it was justified for Serbians to kill muslim Bosnians as 'interlopers' ... So, please do tell me more about how to become humane and tolerant, like you, Milosevic and Karadzic?

and then writes this today: That's mainly the fault of muslim women themselves. Their arrogance and supremacism is the root casue of their difficulties adapting

I do think you mean 'cause.' But do try to spell out what you mean, because I know you know what arrogance and supremacis[t] ideologies are, probably intimately...

and then this: Muslim women have the world's highest rates of illiteracy and the lowest rates of eduction. That's a fact, not a mere "perception". And backward tribal societies characterised by racid theocratic diktats don't class as "cultures".

You know, I really hate the rabid and racist governments in Iran and Saudi Arabia, but one thing they do do is women's education, the country with the highest percentage of women with university degrees is Iran. I don't know if you live in Scratch-assistan, but there are lot of educated muslim women out there who will resent your comment highly.

Manal Omar is very well-educated, and since she's Iraqi, she probably learnt Arabic literature in Saddam's schools, and English in England - but she can still put a few words together more clearly than you, John. But don't worry, she won't come here to school you, she probably doesn't bother herself with every "101st fighting keyboarder" out there.

John Palubiski said "Had this backward ninny any courage whatsoever, she'd be in Iran engaging in "resistance" by challenging the beatings, the violence and the intimidation of Bronze-Age morality squads But she isn't. She's in Iraq promoting the same backward dysfunctional mentalities and mindsets that lead to the creation of morality squads, so what does that TELL YOU of her commitment to "choice"?"

Do you really think risking one's life to advocate for women's rights is "backward mentalities?" Really? I reiterate my comment about intellectual capacity.

Perhaps you and the Iranian clerics should meet-up since you both think you know better than women what's best for them (silly girls).

BTW, do you really think Manal lacks courage because she risks her life in Iraq and not Iran? I volunteer my time to help developmentally disabled adults and yet, I'm starting to lose patience with your lack of logic.

The better question is why Palpablinsky isn't waging the crusade he so craves. I have yet to meet a dumber islamophobe online then this cretin.

John Palubiski,

You sad, sad Islamophobe, have I got news for you. While you've been busy abusing us Muslim women for wanting to dress the way we choose, some of our non-Muslim sisters have been distributing the link to the five-piece swimwear shop and it looks likely some of them will join us in our choice of swimwear...what have you to say now?? Read it here and weep, you goon:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,2063919,00.html

Did you see this post?

"...I shared the link to the swimsuit-maker among my friends and those of us with red and blonde hair, and the skin to match, all decided that we rather liked the swimsuit. To be able to swim without burning! As we all become more conscious of skin cancer I suspect there will be a growing demand for the burkini or something similar among women of other faiths and none. Farah Mendlesohn London"

As a teacher of teenage Muslim girls, I say "Go Manal!". The broad acceptance of this kind of swimwear while mean that no Muslim girl needs to drop out of swimming once she hits puberty. Continuing swimming throughout the teenage years and into adulthood is important not only for the girls own health and safety but also for any children they might have in the future. How can a mother supervise her own children swimming if she can't swim herself?

I know I have already responded to this but also struck me that Manal's swimsuit really not so different to the cover-all swimsuits we encourage children (and adults) to wear in Australia to protect the skin from burning and skin cancer. Check out the Kombi adn the Surf comp suits in particular:

http://www.cancervic.org.au/store/new/browse.asp?ContainerID=2344

I have read both Manal Omars and this article and I must say that although her article is attacking all of Oxford rather than the obnoxious man (Cadwell, his name was I think.) who humiliated her, this is extreemely bias. So this woman wants to wear a 5 piece bathign suit, so what?

Do we turn our heads at those who wear the bare minimum when takign a dip in the pool? I should think not. So why must we criticize her for doign what she belives in? She is not hurting anyone, nor is she being disrespectful. To have a debate over something so trivial is immature. It is a bathign suit we are discussing.

Manal, if you read this, you should not let people bother you about clothes or a bathing suit for that matter. Its religion that wants us to be do a hijab, not any culture. If people have issues with a bathing suit, its only because they think somebody made them the authority. As Komal said, nobody bothers to say anything about those who wear the bare minimum. Let people be, you live your life. If they think Islam is so conservative, bent upon killing women or something its their erroneous belief. And I appreciate what you are doing for women all over the world. Peace.

The Burkini can be bought online from here: - modestswimsuits.co.uk